This is HCD: Human-Centred Design, UX & Service Design

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Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of This is HCD. My name is Gerry Scullion, and I'm a human-centred service design practitioner based in the beautiful city of Dublin, Ireland.Today's episode is a little different, and I'm genuinely excited about it. I'm handing the mic over to my colleague and guest host, Hyun Song, who sat down with someone I've wanted on this show for a long time: Dr. Jutta Treviranus, founder and director of the Inclusive Design Research Centre at OCAD University in Canada, and one of the most influential voices in inclusive design anywhere in the world. Jutta has spent more than four decades challenging the idea that we should design for the average person, and this conversation could not be more timely.
In this episode, Hyun and Jutta get into what inclusive design actually means once AI enters the picture. They talk about why the data we train these systems on keeps failing the people who need the most support, why simply adding "more data" about people with disabilities can make an AI system more confident and more wrong at the same time, and what it will actually take to build systems that work for all of us, not just the statistical middle.
Before we jump in, here are three things to listen out for:
First: the Human Starburst. Since 1979, Jutta has been informally collecting one question from almost everyone she meets: what do you need to thrive? Plotted out, the answers form a starburst. Around 80% of needs cluster tightly near the centre, while the remaining 20% scatter across the huge, jagged periphery, and that's where people with disabilities tend to land. Nearly every system we design, from products to health care to education, works reasonably well for the centre and breaks down completely at the edges.
Second: more data doesn't fix a biased AI, it can make it more confidently wrong. Jutta tells the story of testing self-driving car models with footage of a friend who pushes her wheelchair backwards through intersections, a real but statistically rare behaviour. Every system decided it was safe to proceed. The fix everyone suggested was more data. When Jutta retested with additional, even oversampled data, the systems didn't get safer, they got more confident that people in wheelchairs move forward, and would have run her over with greater certainty.
Third: real inclusion means full participation, not personas. Jutta argues that people with lived experience of disability need to be in the room to frame the problem in the first place, not consulted after the fact through empathy exercises or diagnostic categories that flatten how varied disability actually is. She's chaired the technical committee behind Canada's new accessible and equitable AI standard, and she makes the case, backed by economic modelling, that designing for the whole spectrum from day one actually costs less over time, not more.
Right, let's get into it. This is Hyun Song's conversation with Dr. Jutta Treviranus. Enjoy.

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Gerry sits down with Sarah Stone McDevitt — a self-described "unstructured data" kid from the back of the classroom, now working in SaaS ecosystems and author of The Round Table. Sarah explains how phonetic dyslexia led her to write an entire book by talking into a voice memo, why we've been measuring human value wrong since school, and why relationships compound through the least efficient things we do: sitting with someone's story, sending an article with nothing attached, closing the laptop. Plus: the five signals of relational intelligence, why empathy without accountability isn't kindness, and a competition to win a copy of the book, signed and posted by Gerry himself.Question: Sarah names five 'signals' of relational intelligence in the book. Name one.
Email support@thisishcd.com with your answer before August 31st to be in with a chance of winning. Winners will be announced via our newsletter. To join, go to thisishcd.com

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→ Train my organisation https://www.thisishcd.com/training
→ Video Courses https://www.thisishcd.com/courses
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→ Gerry's consultancy (Service Design and Design Research) https://humana.design/
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BECOME A DIRECTORY MEMBER (IT'S FREE!) and get all of this
→ FREE Introduction to Journey Management course with Marc Stickdorn & Gerry Scullion (Sign up for free with an email)
https://www.thisishcd.com/dashboard/learning/introduction-to-journey-management
→ Discover & Connect with others https://www.thisishcd.com/directory
→ Claim partner discounts https://www.thisishcd.com/partners
Gerry wears clothes from Sutsu, and has a coupon code for them, as well as Smaply, Scenario Cards, Unit 1 and more...
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We are building an independent global network of people doing human-centred work.
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In this episode of This is HCD, guest host Hyun Song kicks off her special series on inclusive design and accessibility, in conversation with Jamaal Digital Davis, a senior inclusive designer at Yahoo and founder of Inclusive Tech Club.Jamaal's core idea is simple: compliance is the floor, not the ceiling. In this episode, we talk about what inclusive storytelling really means, how to tell stories that don't flatten people into stereotypes, and what changes, for better and worse, when generative AI becomes part of how those stories get made.
Jamaal is also a filmmaker. His short film BEADS, a four-minute Afrofuturist drama made with generative AI, is the phoenix project he describes in the episode. You can watch the 60-second teaser and see the visuals at beadsfilm.com, and enter your email there to get a link to the full film
Connect with Jamaal
Website: https://jamaal.digital/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamaal-davis
Newsletter (subscribe on LinkedIn): https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=7243645845663793152
Short film BEADS: https://beadsfilm.com/ 

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BRING THIS IS HCD INTO YOUR ORGANISATION
→ Train my organisation https://www.thisishcd.com/training
→ Video Courses https://www.thisishcd.com/courses
→ Coaching Community (Coaching, Courses, WhatsApp) https://www.thisishcd.com/members
→ Gerry's consultancy (Service Design and Design Research) https://humana.design/
________________________
BECOME A DIRECTORY MEMBER (IT'S FREE!) and get all of this
→ FREE Introduction to Journey Management course with Marc Stickdorn & Gerry Scullion (Sign up for free with an email)
https://www.thisishcd.com/dashboard/learning/introduction-to-journey-management
→ Discover & Connect with others https://www.thisishcd.com/directory
→ Claim partner discounts https://www.thisishcd.com/partners
Gerry wears clothes from Sutsu, and has a coupon code for them, as well as Smaply, Scenario Cards, Unit 1 and more...
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All episodes have been produced by This is Podcasting.

We are building an independent global network of people doing human-centred work.
Create an account, join our newsletter, learn, listen, connect and network - for free → https://www.thisishcd.com/signup
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Hello everyone, and welcome. I'm delighted to introduce Hyun Song, someone I've come to know through the Coaching Community here at This is HCD. Hyun is an exceptional practitioner and thinker, and a valued member of our community — someone who embodies the values we hold as human-centred design practitioners.I'm thrilled to have her introduce a three-part series on Accessibility. For this series, Hyun has connected with some of the world's leading accessibility experts and consultants, and the conversations she's created are truly outstanding.
I've learned an enormous amount from Hyun — through watching her work, through our conversations, and now through these episodes, which you'll see over the coming week. I'd encourage everyone listening to give this series the attention it deserves.
This series also reflects what our coaching programme is all about. Some designers seek coaching to develop their professional practice; others want to build capabilities in new areas of interest. Podcasting, I believe, is a phenomenal skill to develop — it demands curiosity, clear thinking, and the ability to explore topics that matter, not just for the practitioner but for our wider community, who benefit from that curiosity too.
Enjoy the first episode. And if you get a chance, visit thisishcd.com and join the directory, where you can connect with Hyun, support her work, and follow the episodes as they're released. You may well find something in this series that strengthens your own craft.
Enjoy the episode.
https://www.thisishcd.com/directory/hyun-song

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BRING THIS IS HCD INTO YOUR ORGANISATION
→ Train my organisation https://www.thisishcd.com/training
→ Video Courses https://www.thisishcd.com/courses
→ Coaching Community (Coaching, Courses, WhatsApp) https://www.thisishcd.com/members
→ Gerry's consultancy (Service Design and Design Research) https://humana.design/
________________________
BECOME A DIRECTORY MEMBER (IT'S FREE!) and get all of this
→ FREE Introduction to Journey Management course with Marc Stickdorn & Gerry Scullion (Sign up for free with an email)
https://www.thisishcd.com/dashboard/learning/introduction-to-journey-management
→ Discover & Connect with others https://www.thisishcd.com/directory
→ Claim partner discounts https://www.thisishcd.com/partners
Gerry wears clothes from Sutsu, and has a coupon code for them, as well as Smaply, Scenario Cards, Unit 1 and more...
________________________
All episodes have been produced by This is Podcasting.

We are building an independent global network of people doing human-centred work.
Create an account, join our newsletter, learn, listen, connect and network - for free → https://www.thisishcd.com/signup
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Gerry finally sits down with one of his design heroes, Leisa Reichelt: research leader at GDS, Australia's DTA, and Atlassian. They dig into why scaling research is never a copy-paste job: how Leisa set her terms at GDS, why the DTO lost its way when the political "why" walked out the door, and what it cost to reset the research culture at Atlassian. Plus: why politics is the work, and why every researcher should know their top three things for the lift ride with the CEO.
Things we cover in this episode:
Building the research practice at GDS and GOV.UK; setting your terms as a leader; research recipes and resourcing patterns; blogging as public accountability; posters and phrases designed to be nicked; why GDS outlasted political change; the DTO/DTA and the cost of losing political sponsorship; scaling versus impact; legible versus illegible bureaucracy; resetting research culture at Atlassian; consent and research ethics; being opinionated with skin in the game; and podcasting as a research superpower.
Links:
Leisa's podcast: The School Can't Experience
Find Leisa on LinkedIn

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BRING THIS IS HCD INTO YOUR ORGANISATION
→ Train my organisation https://www.thisishcd.com/training
→ Video Courses https://www.thisishcd.com/courses
→ Coaching Community (Coaching, Courses, WhatsApp) https://www.thisishcd.com/members
→ Gerry's consultancy (Service Design and Design Research) https://humana.design/
________________________
BECOME A DIRECTORY MEMBER (IT'S FREE!) and get all of this
→ FREE Introduction to Journey Management course with Marc Stickdorn & Gerry Scullion (Sign up for free with an email)
https://www.thisishcd.com/dashboard/learning/introduction-to-journey-management
→ Discover & Connect with others https://www.thisishcd.com/directory
→ Claim partner discounts https://www.thisishcd.com/partners
Gerry wears clothes from Sutsu, and has a coupon code for them, as well as Smaply, Scenario Cards, Unit 1 and more...
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All episodes have been produced by This is Podcasting.