The GameDiscoverCo Show

We talk about GDCo’s recent player survey of AI in games, whether Steam refunds for short games are bad news & how the Apple Arcade catalog has settled in over time. Plus, we discuss where Meccha Chamelon fits in the Steam ecosystem.

How does Steam Machine's pricing reflect the new reality of hardware costs? What's the state of physical video game sales in the U.S. in 2026? And what is Next Fest's relative importance for marketing your game?

In a pilot episode, Simon & Chris talk about Summer Game Fest & its discovery ramifications for devs, as well as GTA VI's release, Epic's State Of Unreal showcase and UK social media-related legislation that may affect games.

Welcome to the fourth Tales From GameDiscoveryLand podcast in Season 1. In this episode - recorded a few weeks back - we talk to Scott Reismanis, founder of platform-agnostic game mod host/platform Mod.io about the evolution of UGC (user-generated content), the impact of this content in games, and the future of the space.
Presented by Simon Carless, founder of GameDiscoverCo, this bi-weekly, limited series podcast features conversations with smart people in the video game industry on how games get discovered and played. Below is a lightly edited full transcript of the entire podcast.
Reminder: you can get hold of episodes via our official podcast page, and also via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher and Pocket Casts. If you need it, here’s our podcast RSS feed. And thanks in advance for listening.
Podcast transcript: Scott Reismanis and Mod.io
Simon: Have you heard all the fuss about user-generated content for games in recent years? If your game supports UGC or mods, it can significantly boost its virality and discovery. Which is why we were so excited to catch up with Mod.io founder Scott Reismanis for our latest podcast. 
Scott was also the founder of ModDB and IndieDB, and has been involved in the mod scene for more than 20 years. His new VC-backed company, which helps run cross-platform mods for games like Snowrunner, Totally Accurate Battle Simulator, Deep Rock Galactic & Skater XL - is doing some interesting work to make mods available multi-platform. 
So let's hear all about the benefits and pitfalls of making modding a discovery engine for your games. I'm Simon Carless, founder of GameDiscoverCo, and this is the Tales From Game Discoveryland podcast. 
[music]
Simon: Okay, so I'm here with Scott - How's it going, Scott? Are you having a good day?
Scott: It’s going well, thank you. Just wrapped up a successful trip to GDC, and it's great to be talking today.
Simon: Awesome - we've certainly known each other for a while. We did some work together back in the day on things like the Indie Royale bundles but obviously I'm very interested to hear about your latest project Mod.io. 
I was looking at the progression, and you noted on your blog that you had 12 million mods downloaded in 2019, 70 million in 2020, and 208 million in 2021. So clearly, the service - which provides mod support and a kind of centralized [hub] for a bunch of different games - is going quite well.
Can you talk about what particular games your growth has been led by? I'm interested to hear like the three or four games that you feel that people are really, really getting going on Mod.io.
Scott: So Mod.io and modding in general has typically spanned many genres of games, whether it's open world RPGs, like your Skyrims and your Cyberpunks, through to simulation games - we always said if it has a bus, trains, cars or planes in it, it's suitable. Right through to the multiplayer first person shooters and competitive games - where just customizing your avatar or changing the level can have a big impact on gameplay. 
For us, our growth has been driven by, probably, all of those genres. But in particular simulation titles, for whatever reason. We've got a lot of truck and bus and car related games on the service. And they're just extremely popular with the players because once you've tried the 5 to 10 vehicles available to you, naturally you want something that's faster, bigger and got more wheels - whatever it might be.
So they've really driven it . But it's definitely a diverse bunch, because we've got games like Totally Accurate Battle Simulator that kind of break the mold. It’s in physics simulators that people are dropping-in characters, and they've submitted 1.5 million pieces of content - and driven a lot of downloads.
Simon: Can you talk about the broad type of mods that you're seeing? I think people have different opinions of mods based on what they think ‘mods’ means - and it's everything from cosmetics to kind of total conversions. Can you talk about the different classes of mod that you often see?
Scott: The lines have really been blurred the last few years. Historically, when I got started in modding with ModDB back in 2002, mods were all total conversions. There really was no such thing as cosmetic mods back then. And so that's where you got your Counter-Strikes & your DOTAs. That type of content emerged from that scene, because the only way to really ship a game as a amateur or indie developer was to modify existing titles and create something new out of it. 
Fast forward to the last… 10 years. Modding's become, I would say, much more accessible, somewhat more cosmetic. And that's been driven by a few factors. The first has been that digital distribution makes these smaller mods easily accessible for players.
Jumping through hoops to download Counter-Strike was something that players did and justified. But jumping through hoops just to download a new skin for your character didn't necessarily make as much sense. So the rise of [Steam] Workshop made [that content] available to the players at the press of a button - which we're also doing a Mod.io.
That has really opened up the door to sort of cosmetic and sort of more simplified mod types - and people often call them UGCs [User Generated Content]. For us, it's all the same, whether that content is drag and drop in-game and UGC and something that's made just through a few clicks of the mouse. Or it’s content [that’s] made in a level editor, or requires 3D modeling knowledge and skills….
The games that generally perform the best… recognize that too. And they try to make modding approachable, but also allow for a really deep dynamic range of creation. So if you want to go deep and really want to go advanced, that's available to you today. It's a bit of a mixed bag - and there’s just so much more content that players can make, and games can enable them to make.
Simon: Yeah, I was looking at some of your top titles. And I did notice they had total conversions in them, but they also had skins as well. So I could see that there was quite a lot of difference there. The popularity of mods depends on how [devs] display it [in-game] and how integral it is to gameplay. Do you think there's just some types of games where mods are more integral to gameplay than others? 
Scott: There definitely is. We generally say that games that have a very strong story-line or narrative or very strong art style, it's difficult to work mods into that. Because first, the mod creators are going to impact that stylized approach that you've created for your title.
Whereas games that are multiplayer - naturally, people really want to try new levels. Once you've played the first five gameplay modes in the game, you want new levels for it, that you can experience multiplayer on. Or you want cosmetic skins, new weapons and items in the world.
That's what allows you to personalize your player experience and… stand out relative to other players. So that genre really goes well. And then it's the really open-world RPG or simulation games that also skew in a single player direction where people want to change a skybox. They want to make new graphics and HD pack updates or just change the objects in the world. It's definitely more imagination driven creation. And because the scope is so large at those games, mods tend to lend themselves really well to it.
Simon: I was quite impressed with the range of titles you've got on there. I guess one question I had is: how much maintenance is there in order to set this up [as a developer]? Obviously, one thing devs are always thinking about is “How complicated is this going to be?” Maybe you can talk about the most complicated that you've seen and the least complicated. 
Scott: There's a few things that you need to consider here from the perspective of a game developer. One is the actual implementation of mod support (ie: what content are you going to allow your players to create in your game?) And so for some titles, that might mean they're just sharing save files and it's just drag and drop gameplay.
And then whatever they remix and create, they save and… submit and share as a piece of content. So that's sort of more like your Space Engineers and your Totally Accurate Battle Simulator type titles where the game is almost the creation.
You build your own spaceship, you share it - Besiege is in the same [category], where you build your own machine and you share it. Or TABS, where build your own little characters in the character editor and share it. In those titles, the focus for the studio is how they build those editors and make them work. Because it's core of the gameplay there's a lot of effort that has gone into that. 
Then you have the opposite end of the spectrum. And that's sort of more like your Insurgency or Snowrunner that we've worked with. The creation happens outside of the gaming experience, and as a result of that the knowledge and skills that the creators require is a lot different. 
In the case of Snowrunner, I think there's like a 40 to 50 page PDF document on how to make levels and vehicles. That’s what the community started with, a deeply technical guide that involves a lot of different skill sets. And at first glance for someone, it is daunting - there's a lot to it. And yet there's been, I think at this point, over 1500 vehicles submitted. So that's a classic example of ‘never underestimate the power and talent and the resourcefulness of your creative community’, because with very little they can figure out a lot. 
In some ways, that actually leads to the most emergent and interesting creations. Because you've given them that scope and that flexibility. You haven't necessarily defined what they can and can't do. And they'll figure out ways to push boundaries and do really interesting things. So that definition is really up to the game studio to decide and then to put that policy into motion.
But the advice that I always like to provide is - never underestimate what your creative community can do. Because if developers could figure out how to reverse engineer Grand Theft Auto to add multiplayer mode, or Euro Truck Simulator to add multiplayer mode - that's pretty complicated tasks that they've done. Chances are they can probably mod your game, if you give them the opportunity too.
The second part of this question is - how do you solve the distribution piece and making that content accessible? And that's sort of where we come in as a service at Mod.io. We provide plugins for Unity and Unreal, and an SDK for other engines.
Our goal is always to lower the barriers to entry to support custom content, not just on PC, but also on consoles - by having those tools be as drop-in a solution as they can be, complete with UIs and everything. Our goal over a longer period of time? The [phrase] that we like to use internally is: “We want to help mods feel official - feel legitimate, like they're part of the game.”
[Mods are then] a first class citizen, and the level of polish and presentation and accessibility for players of all types is scaled up. So, every design decision that we make… is taking one more step in that direction. And I'd say that we're certainly not entirely there yet. But we're getting close with every iteration and every learning and lesson that we take from developers. And we've had studios that have got up and running ‘start to finish’, with debugging in less than a week. We've had one studio do it during a game jam in 48 hours in Unity. So it's possible, but there is lift.
Simon: In terms of the tools you provide and your competitors - Steam’s Workshop is the most obvious one that comes to mind for me. But I wondered… can you explain maybe, who you think your competitors are, and how they do things differently?
Scott: Yeah, so there's a number of different ways that modding is supporting games. There's the unofficial communities that have always existed - so that's your ModDB, which is something that I started 20 years ago. There's NexusMods, which got started around a similar time-frame. And then there's a number of other communities like that.
Essentially, that's what gets used when the game studio doesn't provide any official support, but there's players still modifying the game. So they find and set up a community where they can share - and other players can find and download - that content. 
So that's… where modding has sort of come from. There's a few hoops that players have to jump through: to exit the game, and then download and install that content manually, or with the assistance of a launcher installer. When modding then moved from this and Steam took it to with their Workshop solution is an SDK that game developers can integrate. 
So this is probably the primary competition for us, in that Steam provides a tool that automates that installation. And developers just have to do the plumbing and connecting of the SteamWorks Workshop SDK. Mod.io is the same. So the plumbing is very similar and the outcome is also identical. Players can now access mods in game via the in-game menu, they can browse content, they can click subscribe and then the SDK behind the scenes automatically puts that mod in the folder for the game to detect and run. 
Where Mod.io diverges from [Steam] Workshop is that we're pushing cross-platform and we really want to enable mods beyond just PC on mobile, VR, and console devices. We've seen great numbers - it’s still a very new area of gaming. As well as allowing studios to set up their own communities, get close with their players and their creators. They can identify the type of content that their consumers want through that interaction that they now have sort of ‘control’ over - and also really building their brand.
So there's like three or four levels that we differ that are quite important for us, and for studios that want to do more with modding. Other than that, Overwolf’s looking to do that - and they’re still buiding that product. You also have sort of cloud-like services like Accelbyte, and PlayFab from Microsoft that do… very rudimentary UGC frameworks. So you can kind of get the plumbing in. But you’ve still got to build the house, and the community and all the interfaces on top of it. 
I think this is an area within gaming that's obviously the biggest focus. We've obviously all seen the metaverse’s emergence. And whilst that's not exactly what we're trying to do, the success of Roblox and other titles kind of validated [that] this is an important area within gaming.
Almost every title is trying to work on their player engagement and then their content strategies. It's very likely that there's going to be a lot more ways to approach this problem in the future… that we haven't even considered yet.
Simon: It's interesting you mentioned console, because I think I saw somewhere in your materials that more than half of your downloads are on console, looking at individual mod items.
That's something that people don't always think about - because they think about PC as the main modding area. I'm presuming, in some cases, these mods are like vehicles or maybe [vehicle] designs for games rather than total conversions. But… how extreme does the console modding go? Obviously, you can't just do arbitrary geometry into a Xbox version that works on PC, right?
Scott: Yeah, there's certainly different rules that apply to the console platforms, and every platform applies its own rules. We exist to demystify that and make it easy for studios to tackle. And as a result of that you get different outcomes. What we've noticed was then on PC, probably 1 out of every 100 games do any kind of modding and you can see it.
So it's still early days for modding on PC. But at the same time, it's something that players have grown up with, and been used to - and had exposure to over a long period of time. If you look at consoles on the other hand, you could literally count on one hand the number of games that provide this functionality to their players. And it's been your really big titles. 
So it's just Skyrim - that’s got cross-platform mod support - Minecraft, your Robloxes and Microsoft Flight Simulators. So there's only really a very small pocket of games that have it. We help titles like Snowrunner, and also TABS, and also Space Engineers and Skater XL and others launch on PlayStation, Xbox and beyond.
Being such a unique selling point and so early to market with this functionality, the consumer response was really quite insane. The number of downloads and content consumption of those players was… up to five times their PC counterparts. 
Now, I think it's because it's such a unique feature. It's such a unique feature for subscription services like GamePass - it's a really good way to retain players in those titles, and retain subscribers without necessarily having to ship more content. Ultimately, I think just the players were super responsive to it. 
Also, some of the rules that the console systems apply actually appeared to be almost beneficial. On PC, in some of those titles, they allow all mods. So any mod that gets submitted is instantly available for all players. On consoles, they curate every week or month or whatever cadence the studio wants to curate, on to those platforms.
As a result of that curation, where they validate that the mods work and then approve them for the console device - it almost becomes an event that players look forward to. They know that every week, Snowrunner has its mod drop on Xbox and PlayStation. We get to see the new 10 mods that are coming to those devices.
So it becomes almost like a season pass… happening weekly, just due to the quality and quantity of content that's been made by the players. That then drives a lot of engagement for that game. So I think there's a number of factors that are contributing to the numbers that we're seeing. But it’s certainly very validating for us and exciting for the studios that have done it.
Simon: Great! So I guess I did have a question about mobile. I did notice that more mobile games in recent months are talking about mods - or at least unique content. I saw that SuperCell has set up a platform called MAKE where they're trying to get people to make more skins for their games. Have you got very far into the mobile space yet? What are your thoughts on how that's going to go?
Scott: Modding has historically been a PC Western game phenomenon. And its penetration into mobile markets, free to play markets, Eastern markets hasn't really happened yet. So for us, that's a really exciting opportunity and change that we see coming.
There's not a mobile studio that we can talk to, that isn't thinking about this in some form or another. And they’re considering their strategy and approach to this. From my perspective, there's a few things that I don't think studios are always aware of.
Content creation doesn't have to happen on the device of consumption. If you've got a passionate player base, modding is a multiplier of success. And so there'll be a percentage of your users that see themselves more as creators than they do as consumers. When you enable this functionality, they'll figure out whatever you offer to do it.
So in the SuperCell case, with their MAKE program, people aren’t making those characters in the game. They're using 3D editing software on PC, and then SuperCell curates the best content officially into the next release of the title.
So I think we're going to see over the next few years, a massive rise in user generated content on mobile. Those games build entire business models around content and player engagement. And there's no better way to engage players and build a flywheel that can continue to grow and sort of be self-fulfilling than user generated content. 
So… it makes a lot of sense. It's just that it is complex. There's a lot more to consider. There's a lot more restrictions on those devices, and things that you've got to do to implement it. So from our perspective, we've still been focused on that traditional gamer and that core gamer…. so we don't officially have our [mobile] modding solution set up.
However, our platform is agnostic. There's absolutely no restrictions on how studios use it. So we've already seen a few smart titles that are on iOS and Android that have adapted our technology to work on those devices. And they've got content flowing through them, and being available to the players.
So we think that this is an area where the industry 's going to grow enormously. Because from my perspective, mobile is so much different from PC - where if you ship a successful game, there's probably 30 clones of it on the App Store within two months.
Like, it's incredible how quickly the industry responds to it. And so I often wonder, what happens if someone ships like a Match 3 builder on iOS, and then the players could come up with their own themes.
So then they would have made the candy, the lemonade, the chocolates, goats, whatever it might be. And they'll come up with all their own themes, animations, different gameplay modes, different progression systems. And maybe [the game] could have maybe created a lot less churn for themselves, and a lot less of this copycat phenomenon that happens. 
It's pure speculation… but I often wonder what would have occurred if that had been the case? Because that's a really simple game that people would say is not suitable for modeling at all. Like, why would you want a match three game, right? The gameplay is so simple. And I'll say no. I actually think that application does make a lot of sense.
So yeah, it's an interesting area of the market. It’s still extraordinarily early, and I think it'll be several years before we start to see much movement. But there will be a lot of movement once it starts.
Simon: Talking of mobile reminded me of micro-transactions - which reminded me to ask you how you think this all works with monetization. Because clearly some [developers] are monetizing via cosmetics, and mods are sometimes cosmetics. What do you say to people who've talked to you about that?
Scott: I suppose we… point to Roblox as an example of how it can be done well, Roblox launched their Developer Exchange [in 2013], and that's the point at which creators could actually earn on the platform. And growth really kicked off for them every year subsequently.
And also what happened every year subsequently is their in-house content production, like the official content that the creators were making, became less and les. To the point where I think at the end of last year, they said that they do no in-house content production - it's entirely done by their players now. 
I would like to believe that we'll see similar trends in gaming once this becomes player accepted, and it's done in the right way. And if it also becomes accessible for studios to implement.
What they'll realize - and we've talked to a lot of studios about this, and we've looked at our own metrics: the amount of content that can emerge from your creative community is upwards of 5 to 10 times what you can produce in house through your content production team. And the quality - depending on the tools you provide, the assistance you provide and especially if there is a monetary incentive, definitely trends towards matching or even exceeding what you could create in-house.
And the originality always exceeds, because modders are going to try to fill out niches and address weird and wonderful things for the game you may not have considered or thought of.
I believe that any game that approaches UGC monetization in the right way? It's not going to be an immediate impact for them. But over time, that content if presented right, if given the legitimacy and curation that it deserves, will add to the bottom line for that studio, and slowly start to displace the need and demand for in-house content.
To the point now where they can run almost user-generated content season passes, user generated content daily drops - whatever their monetization strategy is, they can start to apply those concepts, but with the creations from their community. And really, I think the reason why this hasn't occurred more, and Roblox is more of an outlier than the norm is because it's just a long way outside of what studios are comfortable, and good at doing. 
[Roblox] are great at… building the infrastructure and the systems to do reporting, compliance tax and all of that on a global scale. And package it all up with community moderation, safety and everything else. That's a huge undertaking, and none of that is game development work…
Simon: And it's been a little controversial sometimes, if you've already had a modding scene out there to try and turn it paid, right? Because there were some issues where, I think, Skyrim tried to introduce paid modding and didn't go so well, if I recall?
Scott: That's correct. That's why I really emphasize there's ways for studios to do this the right way, and there's ways to do it that's the wrong way. And for us, we see it as something that should be complementary and strengthen the player experience and not necessarily change the rules on the players.
In the case of Skyrim, that's sort of unfortunately what happened, where I would say that's a community that absolutely loves content for that game. But suddenly having it all be monetized meant that there were certain conflicts… that arose. Had that not been the case and had this been something from Day One in that title, I think we would have seen a vastly different outcome. Or had it been approached in a… slightly different way, there would have been a different outcome too. 
I tip my hat to them trying, and I think it's sort of the right step. But there's just probably a few more steps that need to be taken first, and a few more rules that probably needed to exist for it to happen.
But Game Pass and other subscription services are pushing access to tons of players and different business models. I think it makes too much sense for a lot of studios to ignore. And now's the time that players need to be educated and shown that user generated content and monetization can be a really positive thing, in terms of the quality and range of content that can be created as that scales up.
Simon: In some ways this is quite a different view for a core developer, though. Because as you explained it, the extreme version is Roblox. And essentially Roblox is now a platform - it’s creative, but it is enabling creativity entirely in its user base.
And for many developers, I think, that's quite surprising, because they're used to the concept that they're the font of creativity for games. So how do you think people reconcile this? Do you speak to people who are a little nervous about giving away control over creativity?
Scott: Most people are nervous, especially if their business model is already content driven. And also if they're used to having complete and utter control over their game and its direction. The notion of letting go of that is a really big step.
History, I would say, has almost always shown that your players are going to do interesting things. They're also going to very occasionally do things that you won't want. or doesn't align with your values or qualities that you set for yourself in the studio. So really, you've just got to decide how you want to approach and handle and manage that. 
There's like five or six techniques that we use at Mod.io to help address this and provide studios comfort - whether it's:
* great discoverability tools that automatically surface the good content, reinforce good behavior and bury the bad.
* 24/7 community-based reporting and action systems that allow the community to control that.
* complete moderation, where you are in control of what is shown and available for your consumers at all times.
So there's a lot of different ways you can address that to provide comfort and to ensure your strategy aligns. And there's a number of projects that we're working on in Mod.io in 2022 and beyond that will further reinforce that. We want to help studios set up a really close dialogue with their creative community, so they can guide and assist in the direction that creators take their game - by running events and other mechanisms to sort of drive that. 
I think it all comes down to your strategy - and every game’s strategy should be slightly different. We're happy to advise and provide our feedback on how we would approach modeling in a particular title, for studios to take on board.
Simon: In a related kind of area - how do you think companies think about legal liability? I've noticed that Roblox has a lot of arguably IP infringing stuff on it. And I think their [view] is generally to use more of a DMCA-like approach - ‘If anyone contacts us, we'll take it off’. But obviously very large companies don't tend to work like that. Do you think that's one reason why some of the largest companies have been more nervous about mods than they perhaps should have been?
Scott: I would argue that Roblox is a very large company, it was a $40 billion plus market cap when they IPO-ed, they're one of the biggest in the business. But yeah, DMCA, and the ability for community to report content is the most important tool available to us. Tthat's what the legal frameworks have sort of set, and become industry norm across all systems. And so having a very rigid process in place that allows users in-game - and via the web - to report content for IP and other reasons. 
Those reports then go into a dashboard, and that dashboard is then actioned within a certain timeframe by either the studio or us. They are the steps that must be followed to ensure compliance…. That’s the way that it's done on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram and any other UGC platform that allows people to submit content that they've created themselves… We're no different, and it does work quite well. 
In terms of giving studios comfort, ultimately, I think that comes back to what I said previously about providing different mechanisms and ways… to approach their strategy for content in their game. Most do that reporting flow, and it works really well and they just allow all content.
But there is the option for full curation if they want it - and then they can be in complete control of that. They can also release more simplified creation tools that don't allow people to bring outside assets into their game… so the ability to do it is further reduced. So there's a lot of different ways. 
Ultimately, I think the upside is that the creativity, player engagement and growth that modding drives for these titles will ultimately always outweigh the few bad actors that can be quite easily managed out of the system.
And so I think Roblox is the perfect demonstration where if they came from that mindset of worry, they would have never achieved the scale that they did. So you've got to put a new hat when you're approaching UGC and see this as an opportunity to do something bigger than you presently are - and then just decide what is your strategy for management?
Simon: Yeah, I definitely agree with your point. Roblox is a very large, very high market cap company. I guess they're not a very old company… if you have vintage lawyers in the building, they'll be like “you're doing WHAT?” Whereas I think if you've come from a YouTube generation, you're much more used to it. So I think that makes a lot of sense. 
And I wanted to ask about monetization from a different point of view - which is [Mod.io’s] monetization. I know obviously you are venture funded right now, and you're just sort of scaling up. So I just wanted to ask: what is your kind of short, medium and long term business model for Mod.io?
Scott: Right now, we're going through a market education phase with UGC where, following Roblox’s success, there's probably not many studios that didn't have a look at UGC and what it can mean for their current type of games. And potentially building towards next generation of games - building it as a first class citizen and an early feature in those titles. 
So we’re VC backed - we’ve got great backers and a really long roadmap that we intend to deliver. Because we understand that there's there's going to be a phase of market education. We're not necessarily in a rush to make some of the mistakes that we've seen in the past [such as] the Skyrim example.
And so we want to ensure that we have the capital necessary to deliver on our vision, which is to make the UGC much more ubiquitous across the industry, much more accepted, and a business model and a revenue generator that studios can approach and pursue - should they choose to do so. 
So for us, phase one [is] market education. And that's focused across innovation and just good delivery and building a relationship with the players, the creators in the studios. And establishing ourselves as the thought leaders in the spaces. And as a result of that, for indie titles and smaller titles - Mod.io is an entirely free platform for you to use.
For larger titles and triple A titles, especially ones that want custom branding and a more ‘white label’ experience where it's integrated with their community and their single sign-on provider, we charge a nominal fee per piece of content downloaded. They can easily measure and track for usage of the service.
But ultimately, we want to be a revenue generator and a revenue positive venture for studios that want to do that. And we do acknowledge that not every studio wants to turn on revenue with mods, and they just want to leave it open. But we will provide the functionality and a fully managed solution so studios can use us to deploy ‘Roblox as a service’ in their game, where they can explore various monetization mechanisms.
[So] step one might be just as simple as the Twitch model, where it's patronage and it's just backing creators. Step two might be allowing a curated marketplace of your top [user-generated] content, almost like season passes… and then step three might be a full marketplace and a much more open system. 
That's going to happen over a number of years. And so every conversation we have with Studios is different based on their needs and the direction that they're taking. And that's why the VC funded route is the right one for us.
Simon: Yeah - and I'm glad to hear that you're providing for a multitude of different options there. Because I do think there's some people who just want their mods to be free. But there's also going to be some people in the future, I'm sure, who think: “Well, someone spent a really long time on this mod, it would be nice for them to get tips or some kind of payments”. I think I get it there.
Scott: Bulk of games, I would say definitely do just want mods to be a free feature for their players that they love, and they just want that. But there's certainly also a pocket of games that their business model is shifting - and they think that it'll lead to more content for their players and better, more diverse content.
They really want to enable it and they want to explore the different ideas. And that's why we're taking this stepped approach and we're going to provide optionality and package that up.
Simon: And I think also with the Game Pass on the rise, you know - it's getting much easier to get your game into a wider audience with Game Pass. But then you do have the worry, you know - are you generating any additional revenue?
Is just the Game Pass inclusion fee going to be enough? And that's why people are looking at being slightly more aggressive there. But I also share your feeling that it's really nice to have free mods from the community, and it's nice to have other options as well. It shouldn't be one thing or the other.
So I guess we're coming towards the end here. But I just had a final question for you, which I'm asking all of our guests, which is: you don't have a lot of time to play games but - have you been playing any games in the recent or semi-recent past? And if so, which ones have you been playing?
Scott: So believe it or not, I play an enormous amount of board games. I think through the pandemic, the ability to have a really social gaming experience has been really close to my heart. And there's no more social experience than board games, because by their nature, they're sort of slower and you can chat while you play them and they're not action and necessarily fast moving.
So I found them to be a really strong social outlet for myself - and we're playing all manner of games. Just the other night we played… Power Grid - my favorite title of all time from a board game perspective to play. I've got 40 plus in my collection…
Otherwise, when I want to solo play online, I do a lot of Magic The Gathering. I’m a big fan - it's a good time sink and a perennial. They are always releasing new content. And of course, I can't go past first person shooters. So when I do get the chance, I'm [playing] Counter-Strike and Chivalry and some of these mods that were created many many years ago, and are now evolved into much more polished versions of the same game. If I feel like something competitive, I do enjoy those.
I don't play things like Elden Ring… that are really punishing. I just don't have the time and patience to handle that.
Simon: Thanks again, Scott. It was a delight to have you on the podcast.
Scott: Likewise. Thanks, Simon. Great to chat. 
Simon: And that's all we've got for this installment of the podcast. We'd like to thank Scott for coming on to talk to us - you can find out more about Mod dot io at its appropriately named website, uhh, Mod.io. 
This podcast is made by GameDiscoverCo, home of newsletters and consulting - and now a podcast - around game discovery. Sign up to our newsletter at newsletter.gamediscover.co, and upgrade paid to Plus access if you can. You get all kinds of cool extra stuff - and our gratitude. 
Finally, the credits: many thanks to our producer, editor, and transcriber Alejandro Linares Lopez, theme tune composer Keith Baylis, aka Vimster, and all of our subscribers and listeners. And we'll see you back in GameDiscoveryLand in the near future.


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Welcome to the third Tales From GameDiscoveryLand podcast in Season 1. In this episode, we talk to Clara Sia. She’s currently the ‘influencer strategist’ at noted indie publishing label Devolver Digital, but has previously worked in streamer relations for a number of years, and streams on Twitch herself.
Our subject? The vitally important - and very complex - YouTube and Twitch ecosystem, one of the primary ways that PC and console players discover games in the 2020s. Below is a lightly edited full transcript of the entire podcast.
Reminder: you can get hold of episodes via our official podcast page, and also via Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher and Pocket Casts. If you need it, here’s our podcast RSS feed. And thanks in advance for listening.
Simon: Streamers - they're kind of important to people discovering your game, in 2022. Incredibly important, in fact. Which is why we were so excited to get veteran influencer manager and strategist Clara Sia to the podcast.
Clara is currently working at Devolver, and previously had a long-time stint at a third-party agency. She even streams herself on Twitch, and we had a lot to talk about, given the complex nature of the streamer ecosystem.
So let's dive straight into what I like to call streamer anthropology with Clara.  I'm Simon Carless, founder of GameDiscoverCo, and this is the Tales From Game Discoveryland podcast.
Simon: Hey everyone, and welcome to The Tales from GameDiscoveryLand Podcast. I'm Simon, and I'm here with Clara. How's it going?
Clara: It's going swimmingly. Yourself, Simon?
Simon: I am doing great, thank you. I'm very excited to talk to you because we're talking about streamers, and… something that I think is very important and honestly still not discussed enough in game discovery. This is how you deal with streamers, and how you interact with them, and how they think. 
I wanted to start by asking you - you've been a longtime Twitch partner yourself focusing on indie titles, I wanted to ask how you personally pick games to feature. Is it the outreach from the dev? The game being great? All of the above?
Clara: Typically, all the above, I've always been a casual streamer. So just because I have a little purple check mark it doesn't mean I'm serious or like, a career streamer. I originally started playing Guild Wars 2 and then I moved on to other MMO. I originally did it because… people were giving me in-game gold towards a legendary [weapon] to stream. I… grew to love it and I moved on to triple A titles and retro games. 
Then I got [Twitch] partnered later that year, and I discovered indie games for the first time. Actually, I just decided I didn't care about numbers, I cared more about just having fun and finding new things.
So the discovery is now my favorite aspect of picking and streaming games. I used to do these themed weeks like, you know, paper-themed indie games, dark-themed games, farming… Or if a game or dev at a booth made an impression on me at PAX and then follow up after, I’d play their game.
But now I'm super casual. I used to stream five days a week. Now I'm just two nights a week. So I pick something that's come out recently… that fits my current moods. It’s oftentimes more chill these days… I think they're called cozy streams now. And because I'm not a career streamer, I have the luxury to play what I want, and I don't bother with this strategic game choice. 
That being said, if I ever did want to put serious focus into my stream, there'd be a number of things I'd have to change about it to be commercially successful. And that would include game choice, I would definitely have to be more strategic about it.
Simon: That's the nice thing about Twitch. You can have people from all areas, people doing it for fun, and you can have people doing it more strategically for income. And I did wonder about indie titles in particular.
It seems like maybe indie titles have a tougher time breaking through on Twitch sometimes than YouTube - have you seen that? And why do you think there might be?
Clara: I actually think it's the opposite, personally. It depends on the genre. Some genres and games will do better on Twitch than on YouTube and vice versa. They're completely different platforms & different mediums of content.
I'd say though, generally, it's probably easier to break through on Twitch than on YouTube. But YouTube has more lasting power for all genres, due to its evergreen nature. So [YouTube’s] not just for games as a service, or highly replayable games or open world games, which just typically generate more content innately. But if you have your game [featured] on YouTube, that will last forever, because they very rarely take those videos down. Whereas on Twitch, it's fleeting. 
I'm not saying that [Twitch] streaming is easy. But it's definitely an easier choice for a streamer to take a chance on a game for some number of hours until they get bored than on YouTube - to commit to pre-recording, editing and then publishing it permanently… on their channel.
So for YouTubers, that content is worthless until it's published and they won't know how it will do until it is published. A streamer [Twitch] streaming a game - all of that content is usable, it's monetizable content right away because it's live. And they get live feedback as to whether or not it's working for their audience.
So for me, it's been easier to break into [pitching games to] streamers that way. And then you get the hybrid influencers who are somehow able to do both live and VOD content successfully. I'm not talking about just uploading their live streams, just raw streams to YouTube. I mean, they made YouTube-specific content, and they made Twitch-specific content.
I'm saying Twitch specifically instead of streaming because Twitch is still - by far - the king of all live streaming. So that's where you want your content to live. And in a live-stream fashion, Twitch is where you're going to be looking, mostly. 
Simon: As you say, it's like if you want to put together a video for a new game on YouTube, then you are going to have to spend time learning it. And I'm always impressed with folks like Splattercat. They seem to be able to learn games enough to do pre-recorded content on them, and then edit it down. And they can only spend a day on that, and that seems really crazy to me. 
So I think what you're saying is, if you want someone to try a game for two or three hours and see if they like it, then Twitch is sort of a good place for them to get started. And then maybe if you get the hang of that, then folks who are on YouTube would be also be interested in your game.
Clara: Yeah, one typically kind of follows the other. Again - it depends on the game, the launch, the story beat as well. Oftentimes you'll give YouTubers earlier access because then they can pre-record, they'll adhere to an embargo. And then they publish the content a certain day - and then live-streamers just go live. 
[Twitch streamers] don't have that pre-setup time that's required. And then, as I say, oftentimes if something's a hit on YouTube, then Twitch streamers will follow and vice versa. It really depends on what the strategy is for that particular beat.
Simon: One thing that devs often ask me or I've seen them say: they feel like Let's Players or streamers are playing the same game over and over again. And in some way they feel like that's ‘unfair’, or something. Do you think that's like a fair criticism and why do you think that happens?
Clara: Well, sure, there are definitely a lot of single game or single genre streamers, It's the path of least resistance. There's often still value in targeting both variety and non-variety streamers, though. So I wouldn't necessarily rule them out. I definitely still shoot for anyone who plays in the same genre as your game, even if they stick with mostly… one or two titles.
Variety is always harder to gain traction than sticking to one game or genre. There are a number of strategies and metas that come and go in order to maximize viewership.. But they do it for a reason, for the same reason that sitcoms have formulaic structures. 
You set the expectation and then you meet the expectation. It's very tempting for streamers, especially new streamers, who want to be unique to have specially themed days, regularly scheduled events like talk shows, interview segments, things like that but. But by and large it alienates their viewers… it segments them. Viewers typically want a consistent experience, with very little barrier to entry. 
And talking about streamers specifically. YouTube again, you can have the preamble it's all pre-recorded. It’s edited - you can skip back and forth. But unlike YouTube, you can't really easily rewind [on Twitch]. It's not designed that way as a live-stream - [you can’t] catch up on any pertinent information, find out what's going on.
The majority of [Twitch] stream [viewers] will join midstream. Some will ask what's going on - at which point the streamer or moderator needs to interrupt things, answer them, fill them in. Most viewers on Twitch, though they don't talk at all. They just don't chat. They're just what we call lurkers.
They take in, maybe a minute or two of content… and then they silently decide to go elsewhere, if they aren't immediately caught on to what's happening. So for me it's understandable why a streamer would choose to stick to one genre or one game, because it is the path of least resistance. That is where… the easiest revenue lies for most.
Simon: So for example, for Northernlion, if you come onto one of his streams as a viewer, you're expecting him to be playing some kind of randomized game where he's making slightly sarcastic comments to the audience. And it's kind of different every time, right? That's how it works.
Clara: Yes, and then if he finds a game - and it's not just limited to Northenlion. But if he finds a game, he typically sticks with it for a while if it does really well. I think right now he's really into Super Auto Pets, and he gained a lot of notoriety from The Binding of Isaac. 
Roguelikes have great replayability. Everyone kind of plays through them differently, and you get different stories every single time, so… yeah. 
Simon: I wanted to ask a little bit about designing games to be streamer friendly. I think we've seen games like Isaac that have done tremendously well - it's got a multi-year ‘long tail’ on streamers. Have you identified the particular things in The Binding of Isaac that makes [streamers] play it for so long, so far after release?
Clara: The replayability is huge. If you've got a one shot narrative game, you get one playthrough out of it at most. Most [streamers] don't even finish them, typically - a lot of streamers don't finish games. If they're variety [streamers], they just keep moving on to it.
I'm one of those people as well. You just keep moving on if you don't stream very often. If you stream a lot, sure. There are people who grind it out and do 12-hour streams a day. I cannot fathom that. But most of the time, these people are streaming in their off-time, they have regular day jobs and they're ‘tasters’. 
About what made games [replayable]? Well, first of all the genre. [For] roguelikes, the randomness of it, the procedurally generated aspects of those games make it so that each experience is different. And every influencer creator wants to be unique, they want to stand out - and they want to create their own stories. 
One [aspect] is through the gameplay itself. Another one is through its presentation and how unique it looks. I advise on how to make games appealing to streamers all the time… but I would never dream of changing a developer's vision, if streamers aren't part of their interest in marketing.
So not every game is made for streaming. Not every genre will appeal to influencers, and some of them are just as a whole tough to sell. So point and clicks, for instance, or puzzle games. That's always going to be: “you're fighting against the stream”. 
They'll still make it. There's always going to be the one or two breakouts here and there. But for the most part, it's instantly: ”Oh, we've got a lot of work here”. So any [game] where the playthroughs are unique to each player, typically have a better chance to pick up [interest]. Like sandbox, survival, branching story paths, ‘choices matter’, even if it's vanity.
Anything where the influencers can make their own hilarious stories. We just actually launched an immersive sim called Weird West that I knew would generate some crazy shareable moments on social. There are friends within the Northernlion ‘circle’ who will play games that he recommends - because they talk, they know each other very well.
They know what they're into, and then they create new ‘inside jokes’ within the streaming communities, which is something just so attractive to them. Anything that generates strong reactions.
So horror games will always have a place in content creation, absolutely… and then of course, you want to have something that's visually appealing or interesting. And interesting is in the eye of the beholder. So… it can absolutely look like a super low-poly mess, and it'll still be appealing.
It can still be appealing to influencers, I mean, look at Crab Game, right? Give them some good clickable thumbnails… you don't have to be hyper realistic, but have a distinct look and that is already a huge step above 95% of what's released on Steam.
Then [streamers/YouTubers] will mostly be talking over your game, so sound is slightly less important, but still important. It's one of the most commented-on aspects of the game, as you're watching any streams. Like: “Wow, this music is so great”, or “their voice acting is really good”. But not too much voice acting, because then you're taking away from the streamer’s voice.
So they're all these little aspects that affect the appeal to streamers. And then… you can get really fancy and do Twitch integrations, ‘chat to game’ interaction, Twitch extensions, metagames… it goes on and on and on.
Simon: How much do you think the streamer has to ‘think’ when they're playing a game, versus responding to the audience? Because I've had this concern… if some games are too complicated, you won't really be able to spend any time seeing what your viewers are doing. Is there kind of a ‘happy medium’ there?
Clara: Oh, that's tricky because you [have to take into account] different bands of streamers and their concurrent viewership. So the bigger the stream, the less likely they're going to be reading their chat at all. They kinda glance from time to time, pick out some choice things to respond to, and then they go back to the game. 
If they're skill-based influencers… like, shooter type influencers or strategy-based, and so you're seeing them putting in some ‘sick plays’ as they call it - they interact a lot less, because they actually stay focused.
Most streamers, though… are more seen as entertainment streamers. And they will do about half and half. When I play a game and someone [asks] “How far are you into this game?” to tell them how much progress I'm at, [I say] “I've been playing it for four hours… but realistically, in real game hours, it’s like two and a half.”
Because that's how much [non-game] time I'm spending rambling off-tangent about things, responding to chat, reading chat, looking at other clips, getting distracted with Tweets and things that people want to show me. I have ADHD, I'm diagnosed with ADHD, so it's even harder for me to stay focused. But that's kind of part of the fun. 
Simon: It basically means you just need to be able to stop playing the game for a little bit to see what people are talking about. Or indeed, if your chat is going so fast, because you're a really popular streamer, it's not like you see what's going on that much anyhow. You're just going to be concentrating on… if people are subbing to you, and you're [just] going to say thanks to them.
Clara: Exactly - you reward the people to monetize your stream. There was this incident where Sodapoppin - he's so big and his chat is just constantly moving. He didn't even know, there's unfortunately things called hate raids, I'm not sure if you’re familiar [with the term]. But he received the hate raid, and he didn't even know it happened, because he just doesn't look. 
But you don't want to ignore your…. smaller or mid tier streamers. They have highly dedicated audiences, they are just lapping up every word. They're there to watch whatever that streamer plays. They're there for the community and for the streamer, not necessarily for just the gameplay. 
So they're also important in your marketing plan. Don't take those out of your plan - always take them into account. And those are the ones where you can actually be in the chat, as a developer or publisher You can sit in that chat, you can interact with them and get direct feedback, or you can just listen.
Simon: I was interested in talking about… how you subdivide streamers, at least mentally. You talked about it a little bit and I think it's just difficult. A lot of developers, who have not really paid a lot of attention to the streaming world? It's difficult for them to [understand]. So, if you were to subdivide the three or four main types of streamer - could you?
Clara: Yeah, and it's not just streamers, it's all kinds of influencers, including YouTubers. I will always avoid, when I can - unless it's a very specific crowd - ‘No Commentary’ YouTube channels. I mean, they're called spoiler channels for a reason.
Their audiences, by and large, watch those videos because they don't want to buy the game. They just want to see it. And so they'll post all the boss fights or all the cut-scenes, or just play through it so they don't have to buy it.
But there are certain channels like Alpha Beta Gamer for instance, right? It’s ‘No Commentary’, but his audience specifically looks for new and upcoming games that might interest them. So there's always exceptions, but you just have to get to know them. 
Definitely don't strictly use follower and subscriber counts as the only metric to care about. There's the highly engaging [influencers] - it's so hard to break them up. Fur sure, there’s entertainment - but that's in itself such a big category, and the skill-based. And then you’ve got the Tomato-s of the world (Dumb Dog is another one). He's very good at games, and can read chat… and can make funny commentary and stories.
And then from that you've got the highly engaged [streamers and YouTubers] - they're very concerned with the community… they will respond in the comments, they will respond to chat. They have Discord channels that they participate in every day, they're on social, they respond on social…
And those are very appealing to marketing as well, because their audiences are there for them, they will listen to them - they have true influence. Then there's the other [category of influencers] that are very commercial. They're there for the brand deals. They are celebrity level, and they also have value, depending on your beat. But, you know, get ready for other types of conversation that come up. 
Speaking of the follower and subscriber counts: look at their views more, the concurrent viewership. Look at engagement - is there any? You're gonna see some channels that have very high viewership and zero comments - what is up with that? If there are comments, what are they saying? Is their community a good fit? Are they asking questions? Or are they just saying, “nice”?
What kind of commentary does a creator do? Are they more critical? Like, for instance, Splattercat is there to specifically showcase new games. He is there for the discovery. He's there to spotlight devs, and so a service for them, as well as his viewers. Or are they more involved with just making revenue and boosting their brand? 
What kind of content do they make? Do they do Let's Plays, editorials, reviews, comedy cuts, Top 10 lists, more deep-dive tips and guides? There's just so many different types of activations that you can get into. So it's really hard for me to bucket them all.
Simon: That's kind of why I like the space. So I think I'm a bit of a wannabe cultural anthropologist, you know, and I think there's so much out there. There's so many weird scenes and specific types of streamers. Like, because I was a little bit involved behind the scenes on Hypnospace Outlaw, I was checking out Jerma's stream [of the game]. And you know, he has a whole other kind of very odd ‘meta’.
And there's all kinds of interesting people out there. But it's definitely been my contention that a lot of game companies don't spend enough time understanding this space. Has that been your one of your thoughts - that maybe sometimes we spend a lot of time thinking about sending out press releases, but less time on getting deep into the anthropology of how streamers work?
Clara: I love that you call it the anthropology of streamers. It has its own ecology, its own ecosystem. I can't tell you my time where one of my previous clients, any of my previous clients would ask me things like “Clara, Is ‘POGGERS’ Good?” or  “What is ‘kappa’?” [Poggers and Kappa are Twitch expressions]
So how do you get around that? I mean, if you have the time, if you have the energy and you have the resources to do it, be a part of the culture. Join the streams, watch the videos, be in their chats or Discords, interact with them on Twitter - which by the way, is still the best place to connect with them on social media. It’s not Instagram, it’s not TikTok. Some of them are there for sure, but Twitter is still the place to be. 
It is a culture with many subcultures. And it's not just understanding the lingo, it's also (and this is probably the biggest disconnect here) understanding their needs. There's a massive, massive lack of appreciation for what influencers want in a partnership with brands, which includes game devs.
Ultimately, they want engagement, they want viewership. It's how they make their revenues, how they grow, how they obtain notoriety, and garner and hold on to influence - whether or not they like that word. A lot of people don't like that word, but that's what they want. 
They want to legitimize their long hours. But what affects that viewership - up or down? That's the mystery. So you have to put in the time and energy to get the creator ethos. It is very time consuming, that's why I had a job for four years at the agency, and the business only grew and grew, as our success and influencers grew. 
To give a little context, there were only two of us influencer managers there in a team of 13-14. By the time I left, 40% of the company’s revenue for that year was influencer work. So it's such a large piece of the industry that deserves to be understood. and will only pay back to you if you take the time to understand it.
Simon: I completely agree. I've interviewed SplatterCat for this newsletter. I had NorthernLion talk at GDC in 2014. So I've definitely been super interested in the space for a long time. And I think what people sometimes fail to appreciate is just the depth of these audiences, and… the amount of streamers you can deal with, even foreign language streamers. 
I found that there can be German language streamers or Turkish language streamers that are massive as well. How do you try and keep track of that type of stuff? Do you have a country by country list as well? Because not all these folks are English language speakers.
Clara: Not country by country but language, because they are all over the place [geographically]. So in French, it could be any number of countries that have France as their national language. When I was at the agency, I was global outreach. Now that Im at Devolver Digital and we have an army of PR agencies from around the world, I can now disseminate some of that work - because they speak the language.
It helps with a lot of things, not the least of which getting embargo information very clearly communicated with very little risk of miscommunication. But I have affinities with, definitely, certain demographics, certain non-English demographics. 
I absolutely love Portuguese creators, they are fantastic. The Spanish creators also, there's highly, highly dedicated audiences, massive audiences. Probably some of the biggest audiences if not the biggest audiences you'll see on Twitch are actually, I think, from Spanish and Portuguese streamers.
Korean streamers are also fantastic, I love the German streamers as well. They each sort of have like things that they gravitate to a little bit more to. Russian streamers and Russian YouTubers - very highly dedicated. And kind of a tip if you want to look at sponsoring them, they have lower rates by far [compared to] North American streamers and YouTubers. 
We coordinate the outreach. We make sure all the timing is the same. Certain regions may get a little extra love, depending where our devs are. Because there might be any certain affinities to [the game], or if [a region] has shown any special affinities to a game pre-launch, which does happen a lot. 
For instance, Serious Sam [games] are made by Croatian devs. And then the latest Serious Sam game came out from a Russian mod team turned dev team, and so we had lots of love from Russia. You just have to keep your eyes and ears open and be very, very open to the fact that it's not just about our little bubble here. There's tons of influencers all around the world, and they're just wonderful to work with. I absolutely love it.
Simon: You mentioned the paid side of things and I was going to ask. Obviously, you have been involved in helping to pick streamers for paid streams but - do you have any tips for people considering using paid streamers? Are there times when you can pay money and it's really a waste? Or is it that some types of streamers do you think don't get great ROI for people who actually are selling games?
Clara: Oh yes… when I was at the agency I ran end to end service for influencer campaigns. So I also created processes… what that means is if there was an influencer budget for a launch from what any of my clients, I'd be the one to spend it. I’d do the recommendations, I’d create the lists, I’d do the outreach and the negotiations, the admin work, the legal contract, the compliance, all that stuff. So the budgets ranged from $5000 to six digits - and I came close to a seven figure spend at one point. 
If you're considering paying for content, sponsoring influencers, creators? You can do any sort of activations… and it doesn't have to be just gameplay. I actually personally love the more creative things like doing a cosplay, or commissioning a creative controller.
But, you know, anytime you're paying, that is the one spot in influencer marketing where I will always say to hire someone because it is terrible work to just walk into uninitiated. It's not just a matter of “Okay, well, if you do this, I'll just paypal you 50 bucks” or “I'll send you $1,000”.
It is curating, first of all, the right talent for the part. There are literally tens of millions of streamers… and YouTube is massive. Then there's negotiating the rates and the terms, the deliverables. And you're not talking with independents only at that point, you're talking with the agencies [or talent managers] that represent them.
There's [also] contracts… definitely have one drafted up by someone in the legal world, don't do it yourself, cover your butts… there's also a lot of nuance for negotiating rates. It's not just a matter of standardized CPMs. You have to consider their actual influence, their engagement across all the social platforms, the production quality, the value adds and follow ups, especially if it's evergreen, you know, [if it] lives forever. 
Some agencies just charge more for the one-off activations, because they're mostly interested in long term brand deals, or they're very old school Hollywood. There are some agencies that are very much snapping up influencers now… and you'll see eight managers and their assistants on every email. Every single one of those people gotta get a piece of the pie. All I see the dollar signs going up, up up, when I work with them - it's gotta be worth it.
And then sometimes the advice is not to spend any money at all. There's a misconception that if you have a big game, that's when you should have your big budget. For indies… the sorta double A area, that's just not going to be the case and definitely not for triple As.
I definitely had some triple A clients back at the agency - they had so much power and influence as the brand… those games will get coverage, and you don't need to spend money there. I mean, you can and you'll still probably get something out of it. But it's the ones that need the visibility, that's where you need to put the budget. It’s reversed. That's one thing that I tried to get out there.
Everyone's approach with the deliverables is differeent. Mine is simply have fun, make the game look good, make me look good and that's it. I don't want to take away your voice…
Simon: Yeah, you don't want to be too specific. Because as you say, if you're producing agreements [that say] ‘you can't say these 12 terms while you're doing the video’…
Clara: ‘Make sure you have the six hashtags in your going live tweet’, yes, let's just kill their algorithmic engagement right off the top!
Simon: I'm also on the same page with you - I'm definitely a bit of a paid ad skeptic in general. But I do think you're right - in many cases, big brands can spend around launch and it won't hurt.
But probably, people were gonna pick up that games to start with anyway. And if they keep playing it is going to be based on whether it's actually a good game or not - which you can't really control on the marketing and streaming side of things.
Clara: To answer one part of the question that I totally neglected - who isn't as effective. There are certain spheres where they're mostly meme or troll channels. Their viewers are there to watch them, their personalities, and they aren't really there to buy the games at all.
You'll still get a bump by giving them a code. If they play the game, your [Twitch] category will rise just from that alone - their numbers will just bump the category up, that's good too. But you probably want to stay away from paying their agencies. They charge a lot of money, and you're not getting as much back for that - so just something to keep in mind.
Simon: Yeah, maybe folks [like that] are good for selling energy drinks, but they might not be good for selling games.
Clara: Exactly, or toilet paper which I have seen - I think it's hilarious.
Simon: Yeah, it's getting pretty non-endemic with sponsors.
Clara: I love the blend of lifestyle and gaming - it’s the dream. 
Simon: I had another related question. And I'm not picking on any of these sites in particular. But what do you think of third party sites that match streamers to devs and publishers like Woovit, Keymailer or Lurkit. How do you think they fit into the ecosystem?
Clara: I think marketing is hard and expensive, and game development is hard and expensive. I don't ever blame anyone for using those services. And in most cases, it's probably better than nothing at all. But you do have to be careful who you're dealing with.
Certain platforms I won't name which have had practices where they simply list every game. It's just standard. They list every game out there on the platform, and available for requests. They take requests, the dev and publisher have no knowledge of this, and then they get pitched for a sale with like: “Look at all the people interested in your game that we drummed up”.
So that's not the best practice and they promised me that they stopped doing that. But I'm still finding our games on there completely not initiated by us or our devs.
And despite [these sites] all claiming that it's impossible to spoof identities of influencers on there, I have been shown by influencers how easy it is to pretend to be them asking for keys on those platforms. I have… countless times asked someone that I actually know, sent him a DM: “Did you request this key?” And he’s like: “I've never signed up for that platform.”
It got to the point where I didn't send any keys at all of those platforms. I'd reject everyone, and then send the keys… directly, to their DM and email. So it at least got to the right place, whether or not they wanted the key in the first place. At least I'm not neglecting them if it happened to be them, and it's not going to somewhere else.
Just to clarify - why do people do this - why do they spoof, why do they scam? Whether it's on the key distro platforms or a YouTube scam network, they're just getting more [popular] now, vanity Steam curators or over email - it's because they want to make money selling those [Steam] keys on the gray market. 
I've had many small devs tell me they put their games up for Early Access to [get] visibility on these platforms - and then their games end up on cracked warez sites… or the gray markets within days.
So… if you want to put money into doing even the bare minimum work in influencer outreach, hire a freelancer who has actual relationships with influential creators, and then they can get the keys to the right place. Even with the most reputable platforms… you're not hitting the really big people, because those influencers are in such high demand. Almost none of them use these platforms.
Simon: I think sometimes these platforms… some of them are well run, and some of them get kind of good levels of small and medium creators. But ultimately, I fear that there's sometimes a bit of a box-ticking exercise for PR companies who want to show that they know how to do streamers.
Because they can send people who don't know any better a list of all the people who ask for a key - despite the fact that those people may or may not be influential, or on a few occasions, may or may not be the people that they claim that they are.
Clara: Also… [on] Steam curators. I just Tweeted about this. But I have a plea - please, to anyone listening, please stop sending Steam curator keys over email. If you're going to send them at all… please send them over Curator Connect, where they get the game sent directly to their [Steam] library, and they can't resell them. 
If they're asking for keys over email, it's because they want unredeemed keys to sell in the gray market. And they certainly do not need multiple keys for their “Team” to write two sentences and click ‘Recommended’, because there's a character limit.
Simon: I actually think it's unfortunate. I think the Steam Curator system started out as a good idea, but I think it's become a little non-dynamic. And I think in the end, it wasn't quite the solution to the problem it wanted it to be.
And in fact, the uplift… even if a medium sized [Steam] curator covers you is a little is a little limp,still. So yeah, I think it's worth staying away from entirely, potentially.
Clara: Oh, well. I didn't say it but…
Simon: I just did, I’m in charge, I’m in charge of this podcast so I guess it’s OK [laughs]
So just focusing on what maybe devs and publishers misunderstand about streamers: I know we talked about this a little bit, but I do feel like there's gonna be quite a lot of the audience who just don't deal with streamers, Twitch-ers or YouTubers on a regular basis. What's the thing a lot of people misunderstand when they think about the motivation of streamers?
Clara: Definitely one is exactly what you said, just the motivations of streamers. It's very basic - they just want viewership. They want to have something that's sellable to their viewers, whether it's just watching or they're actually buying and they get affiliate revenue out of it - it doesn't matter.
I think one of the biggest misconceptions isn't about the streamers themselves. I don't think there's the biggest mystery there. It's actually what we [as streamer relations professionals] do. I think, the mystery [from a client side] is like - ‘What are we hiring? Are you just sending things out?’
I've never really kept secrets from my clients… I just send the same email that you do. Mine might be even more boring, because otherwise I end up in spam. But they respond to mine. So it's the relationship and the steeped know-how - that's what you're buying when you hire an influencer marketer. 
It's just the fact that we've been talking to them a long time. We get them. And a common misconception of what we do is the same [issue] as community managers: “Oh, they just tweet a lot of things” No, it's a lot of… behind the scenes strategizing. Actually… I got to pick my title when I went to Devolver, it was influencer relations manager at the agency, and I changed it from influencer to strategist.
It came to me in a dream, because a lot of people just think I sit at my desk and send game keys out to streamers and YouTubers all day. [That is] the smallest part of my job. The work is mostly consultation - it’s strategies, recommendations, anticipating response, setting expectations, planning, pivoting, constant change, executing both paid and organic work, and then extending that tail even after launch.
And that's something I really love about working in-house versus at an agency. There's pros and cons to either. At the agency, I felt more like a mercenary - whereas I feel more ownership working in-house at Devolver Digital. These games are my games, you know. And I feel like I own them forever. But maintaining relationships is still the key. So my job starts actually as early as the pitch - from the first call. And then it straddles… community [and] production, but mostly lies in marketing.
One thing that I think developers don’t understand is how to interact… with influencers in a stream chat. For instance, I see all the time - very key mistake - they backseat [the] game. You know, they just don't want the streamer to miss anything, so they go: “No, look under the box, there's something in there.” Don't do that, please. Seriously, let them experience it themselves - nothing will kill the stream faster. 
Then, maybe this was a bit controversial: I don't think you have to play games or a lot of games to make a good, even commercially successful, game. But I do think that if you want to specifically appeal to creators as part of your plan, you need to stand out.
And to do that, you need to know what has stood out before to them, what appeals to them. And you have to play a lot of games to understand that. That’s one of my values. I play a lot of games - I'm always playing games. And if a pitch comes in, I can compare it to a lot of things that have worked and have not worked and why. “Let's look at the difference?” - “How does this stand a chance?” 
Something else, almost no streamer likes motion blur. Give us the option to turn it off. And accessibility options - hugely important to a vast number of streamers. These are people now showcasing how your game is playable, how it's played. Give them more options. I think that's a really big one to highlight.
Simon: I think discovery, as I've talked about extensively in my newsletter, starts very early in development. So I also feel when I consult or when I work on things, if I'm bought in with like three months to go, I'm kind of like: “Well, I can help you 20%, but it would have been 80% if we talked about this like a year and a half ago.” So…
Clara: As the letter pusher, I will send emails for you [laughs]
Simon: Yeah, I can definitely hit the send button [laughs] - let’s talk a bit earlier about this.
I think it requires you to have a more holistic approach. I do think that's key nowadays, because to your point - I'm looking at games that are popular on Steam now, and a lot of it's driven by streamers. So you really need to have a good understanding of whether streamers will like your game, quite early in the process.
Clara: Yeah, absolutely, and then sometimes you just throw the kitchen sink out. Go on Twitch, throw some GIFs out, throw some MP4s out - what is it that people engage with? What did they lean into? Again, if that is your goal. If you don't care for influencers, make the game of your dreams - don't compromise for anything.
But, you know, do your A/B testing, get out there, there's no time like today to get out there. But as you mentioned, holistic approach. When I look at a pitch, I don't just look at the pitch. If I'm interested, I then go to their Twitter accounts or social media, I check out if they've got a Discord - how's their community? How healthy is it? What are they talking about? Are they already sharing? You know - what are their values? It's absolutely a holistic approach when you are dealing with this.
Simon: Yeah and that's interesting, because certainly as an influencer strategist, that isn't necessarily what people would expect you will be doing. But I do think that's an important part if you're really going to help with strategy, which I think is increasingly important. 
Clara: Yeah, I mean, like for me, one of the biggest things I do is - what is the hook? What is the thing I can do? What is the one sentence I can use to sell a game to influencers? Sometimes it's simply notoriety - “This guy made Pony Island”. That was enough for Inscryption for instance, you know. Daniel Mullins, he's got his cult following, or like - “Do you like Frog Fractions?”
I don't typically like to do it, because to me it feels reductive. But, you know, saying things like “Zelda meets Dark Souls”. But I know that it does sell - quickly - an idea. And it's not to be reductive. It's simply, like: “No, listen to the rest of what I have to say” So yeah, it is finding what  influencers like, what's worked for them, what it is that they put in their [YouTube] titles - that's a big clue. 
Actually, if you go to YouTube, there are two things that are very important to the algorithm for pickup. And if they do well in the algorithm, you do well.. One is the thumbnail: give them assets, transparent, layered assets, isolated assets that they can customize for their video. The worst thing you can do is only provide the same key art to everybody, and that's it.
They can't do anything else - they have to get their own screenshots, which may or may not do very well. Give them elements to move around and make unique thumbnails, that's part of the algorithm pick up. The other one is [YouTubers] think really hard on their video titles, because that is also algorithmim.
So look at what they write in their titles. SplatterCat, like you said, excellent dude for picking the right words that will get picked up by the algorithm. He plays so many different game types - look at what he's writing about, and that's what they're interested in.
Simon: We actually just had a podcast… from Kate Gray and… she's worked in NintendoLife, Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun, and she was talking about the importance of giving key art to the press as well. 
We definitely think that getting the right key art to people is important. And it's not always the same art that you put on your Steam page. So you really need to think about, like, how you're segmenting your media, and who you're sending it to. 
Clara: Absolutely.
Simon: I think we're getting towards the end here. But I'd like to ask a final question that I'm asking to all of my guests. And it's just in terms of what games you've been playing recently or semi-recently that you're really excited about, that you'd like to tell our audience about.
Clara: What am I not? [laughs] 
I'll leave Devolver games off the list because I'm always playtesting. Lately, very most recently, Tunic is absolutely brilliant. I recently 100 percent-ed Nobody Saves The World, also brilliant from Drinkbox.
Clara: I've also like the rest of the world been playing Elden Ring. It's on the backburner now while I get through the latest launches. Or, as I like to call it, ‘Breath of the Wild on crack’, because it is amazing. Just imagine Breath of the Wild but there's real danger everywhere - love it.
I regularly revisit Deep Rock Galactic, one of my favorite games of all time. I just started Core Keeper, I am obsessed with getting my biweekly-ish achievements in Vampire Survivors, it’s an auto-fighting game - it's so good. 
I got hooked on Dicey Dungeons recently, it's kind of an older one. I'm halfway through a run on The Captain, which is a fantastic little sort of choose your own adventure game, fairly well written great pixel graphics. I just got back into Hades, I 100 percent-ed that, and Dandy Ace, in the same category. I’m replaying Katamari Damacy, and Cookie Clicker because I'm a loser.
Simon: I think you managed to singlehandedly exceed the number of games mentioned in all four of the recorded podcasts so far - so congratulations. 
All of those great games - apparently I don't make enough time to play those, but I obviously need to. I'm impressed and as you say, it’s good professional work as well. I presume you expense those games, I hope, because it is a business expense.
Clara: You know, I should start [laughs] I expense my Xbox Game Pass. I'll say that.
Simon: Okay, it's a good start.
Well, that was wonderful and thank you, that was a great list of games - some of which I'm gonna have to go back to, I think. [laughs] And yeah, once again, thank you so much for being on the podcast, it was a pleasure. That was lots of amazing feedback about streamers, and how you approach them and how you work. So thank you.
Clara: It’s been an honor to have been on here. Thank you so much for the invite.
Simon: And that's the end of this particular podcast. 
We'd like to thank Clara for coming on to the podcast. You can check her Twitter account at SeriouslyClara if you'd like to know more about her and her work.
Once again, this podcast is made by GameDiscoverCo, home of newsletters and consulting - and now a podcast - around video game discovery. Sign up to our newsletter at http://newsletter.gamediscover.co, and upgrade paid to Plus access if you can. You get extra newsletters, charts, Discord access, eBooks and more.Our final credits: many thanks to our producer, editor, and transcriber Alejandro Linares Lopez, theme tune composer Keith Baylis, aka Vimster, and all of our subscribers and listeners. We'll see you back in Game Discoveryland in a while. Thanks for listening.


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