History on Drugs Podcast

My latest guest is Stephen Snelders of Utrecht University. Stephen and I met up in Amsterdam last March to talk about drugs, history, and the Netherlands. A native of Amsterdam, Stephen watched up close as the various drug scenes in that great city evolved during the 1980s. This helped turn him into a drug historian, initially studying the history of LSD in his country, and eventually publishing Drug Smuggler Nation: Narcotics and the Netherlands, 1920-1995 (Manchester University Press, 2021).
We talk about the 1960s and Amsterdam, the development of the famous Dutch system of cannabis “tolerance,” the deep roots of drug smuggling there, organized crime, and much more.
As always the podcast is available through Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Pocketcasts, and the Substack app.
Episode Outline
0:00-4:04: Introduction.
4:04-9:14: Early life and education, getting into history, the 1980s in Amsterdam.
9:14-14:40: Graduating from college, the MDMA/House rage, learning that you could get paid to do a PhD, deciding to work on the history of LSD in the Netherlands, doing an oral history of the Amsterdam drug subculture.
14:40-23:20: The development of LSD in the Netherlands in the 1950s and ‘60s, Simon Vinkenoog and the Beats, happenings, the Provo countercultural movement, the road to cannabis “toleration,” Bart Huges and the “third eye,” the 1980s and MDMA.
23:20-31:12: Today’s psychedelic renaissance and its lack of a countercultural vibe, professionalization of psychedelic therapy, psychedelics as PEDs and as part of the neoliberal project.
31:12-43:12: “Smart shops,” mushrooms, “truffles,” coffee shops and Dutch pragmatism, the transformation of cannabis from a hippie drug to something else, criminal involvement in the cannabis market.
43:12-48:49: 1990s homegrown cannabis, Ed Rosenthal, smuggling, new raids on coffee shops, organized crime, medicinal cannabis.
48:49-51:58: Prostitution in the Netherlands and the Amsterdam Red Light District.
51:58-55:35: Finishing the dissertation, first job, the field of medical history, academia in the Netherlands.
55:35-1:06:40: The long history of Dutch drug smuggling, organized crime today in the Netherlands.
1:06:40-1:13:04: Is the illicit market “working”?
1:13:04-end: Outro.



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This week’s guest is Matthew Connelly, professor of international and global history at Columbia University. This interview was especially fun for me because it was Matt who, back at the University of Michigan in the 1990s, turned me into a historian. My whole way of doing things has been indelibly shaped by him.
Matt is of course better known as a great and prolific scholar. His publications include a first monograph on the Algerian War for Independence, his highly-influential book on the history of international population control, and his terrific, recent work on the U.S. government’s obsession with secrecy:
We talk about Matt’s job at the Centre for the Study of Existential Risk, his most recent book, his career trajectory, and much more. We also reminisce and laugh a lot. It’s a great conversation.
As always the podcast is available through Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Pocketcasts, and the Substack app.

Episode Outline
0:00-4:53: Introduction.
4:53-11:36: Center for the Study of Existential Risk, global catastrophic events, nuclear war, studying topics shrouded in secrecy, AI.
11:36-24:43: Using technology to do history, Filemaker, realizing how important being organized is, the influence of Matt’s dad.
24:43-37:23: Teen dreams of being a lawyer and then having a career in policymaking, Matt’s Alex P. Keaton phase, Columbia University as an undergraduate, Cambridge University and discovering a love of history, being mentored and encouraged to continue studying history by Brendan Bradshaw.
37:23-47:59: After college, realizing he didn’t want to have a normal boss, moving on to Yale for graduate school, Paul Kennedy, Gaddis Smith, the Algerian War, A Diplomatic Revolution, learning to write, mentoring students.
47:59-1:00:07: First job at the University of Michigan, jargon and the cutting edge, Geoff Eley, Bob Axelrod, popular versus academic history.
1:00:07-1:07:16: Reflecting on the move from Michigan to Columbia and mentoring students.
1:00:07-1:10:46: Thoughts on our current moment and the importance of history and the university.
1:10:46-end: Outro.


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This week’s guest is drug-policy-reform legend Ethan Nadelmann. Ethan led the charge against the War on Drugs beginning in the 1980s, first as a professor at Princeton and then as the head of the Lindesmith Center (which became the Drug Policy Alliance). He’s published various influential works, including the books Cops Across Borders: The Internationalization of U.S. Criminal Law Enforcement and Policing the Globe: Criminalization and Crime Control in International Relations (with Peter Andreas), along with many important articles and even a podcast.
When we write the history of the end (hopefully) of the War on Drugs, Ethan will be right at the center of the narrative. You get a first draft of that story here, plus Ethan’s thoughts on the psychedelic renaissance, building political movements, and much more.
As always, the podcast is available through Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Pocketcasts, and the Substack app.
Episode Outline
0:00-4:53: Introduction.
4:53-21:18: The psychedelic renaissance, early life, education, getting into drugs academically, getting sucked into national debates on drugs, the emergence of a new drug-policy-reform era, race and reform, the three branches of drug-policy reform.
21:18-37:22: The late ‘80s drug panic, imagining what legalization might look like, meeting George Soros, conceiving of a new drug-policy center, the Open Society Institute, the Lindesmith Center.
37:22-54:55: Connecting intellectual pursuits to activism, historical precedents for harnessing privilege to lead a reform movement, the influence of Ethan’s rabbi father, challenging the drug warriors in person, learning to love public speaking.
54:55-58:24: Interviewing DEA agents, what they thought about their mission, observing the drug war in action in Latin America, including torture and home detention.
58:24-1:07:16: The Lindesmith Center merges with the Drug Policy Foundation to create the Drug Policy Alliance, working with George Soros, medical marijuana in California (Prop. 215), Peter Lewis, George Zimmer, John Spurling, Chuck Bliss, Ram Dass, other initiatives between 1996 and 2000.
1:07:16-1:19:09: The political scene after 9/11, the first international conference on preventing overdoses (2000), changing political winds, unsuccessful ballot initiatives, building the Drug Policy Alliance, balancing the different constituencies of drug-policy reform, “harm reduction.”
1:19:09-1:34:04: Staying enthusiastic and energized, Ira Glasser, successes in the early 2010s, deciding to retire, the 2016 election.
1:34:04-1:48:12: Looking back on all of the extraordinary change since the 1980s, the keys to a successful moral revolution.
1:48:12-end: Outro.



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Maia Szalavitz is my latest podcast guest. Maia is the author of Undoing Drugs: How Harm Reduction is Changing the Future of Drugs and Addiction, Unbroken Brain: A Revolutionary New Way of Understanding Addiction, and Help at Any Cost: How the Troubled-Teen Industry Cons Parents and Hurts Kids, along with several other books.
We met up at her office in New York City last November to talk about her extraordinary life and career. She describes a tough childhood that led into a period of hardcore drug addiction, a period capped by a major drug bust that could’ve landed her in jail for many years. In the midst of trying to navigate the legal system at the height of the War on Drugs, she launched her now very successful career in journalism. She’s got some really brilliant insights on addiction and our misguided approaches to it, along with many stories about encounters with fascinating people ranging from Jerry Garcia to Bill Moyers and Charlie Rose. It’s great stuff.
As always the podcast is available through Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Pocketcasts, and the Substack app.
Episode Outline
0:00-6:02: Introduction.
6:02-15:20: Rough time growing up in upstate New York in the ‘70s, high school, dreaming of being a journalist, getting into drugs to fit in, psychedelics.
15:20-24:28: Enrolling at Columbia, the early ‘80s cocaine boom, doing cocaine with Jerry Garcia, becoming a drug dealer and solving the social dilemma, the roots of addiction, quitting psychedelics in order to avoid facing up to her addiction to other drugs.
24:28-32:34: Trajectory as a dealer, getting busted, sinking into severe addiction, the courts, treatment.
32:34-46:46: The racism of the War on Drugs, Oregon’s decriminalization, why the narratives about recovery are often wrong, the problem with punishment, the problem with Synanon-style treatment.
46:46-51:35: The story of getting busted with two kilos of cocaine.
51:35-1:06:38: After rehab, early “neuroscience,” writing for High Times, working for Charlie Rose, freelance writing, working for Bill Moyers, the Alan Leshner “highjacking the brain” episode, the brain disease model of addiction, 12-step.
1:06:38-1:21:35: Her books and the term “harm reduction.”
1:21:35-end: Outro.



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My latest podcast is with Paul Gootenberg, one of the towering figures in drug history. Paul just retired from his longtime position as the SUNY Distinguished Professor of History and Sociology at Stony Brook University, and I was there in November to both fete and roast him at a symposium in his honor. It’s a very fun conversation. There are lots of great stories about 1960s radicals and the drug culture of that time, hitchhiking across America, a showdown with Studs Terkel, getting arrested in Reno, becoming a Rhodes Scholar while claiming “gardening” as his qualifying sport, and, of course, Paul’s drug scholarship.
As always the podcast is available through Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Pocketcasts, and the Substack app.
Episode Outline
0:00-6:42: Introduction.
6:42-10:06: Banter, Studs Terkel story.
10:06-15:02: Poor performance in high school, taking some gap years, Boston University, figuring out that professors were legitimate intellectuals.
15:02-26:55: Smoking pot in the ‘60s, growing up in Maryland, the “Boone’s Farm” phase in America, hippie high-schoolers, drugs as symbolic during the ‘60s.
26:55-39:52: Getting serious about school, the University of Chicago, John Coatsworth, hitchhiking across America, Haight-Ashbury, getting arrested in Reno.
39:52-52:14: Back at the University of Chicago, getting interested in history, John Coatsworth, Friedrich Katz, Bentley Duncan, Ralph Austen, Peter Novick, and deciding to go to graduate school.
52:14-1:09:15: Becoming a Rhodes Scholar, David Walker, studying at Oxford, Rosemary Thorp, getting interested in Peru and economic history.
1:09:15-1:22:32: Taking a train to Mexico for language school, flying to Peru, becoming a Peruvianist, the influence of Rosemary Thorp, the dissertation, the Institute for Advanced Study, Clifford Geertz and some postmodernists, first job at Brandeis.
1:22:32-1:32:18: Getting into studying drugs in the mid-90s, big questions of cannabis history, cocaine archival research, Cocaine: Global Histories, Andean Cocaine, The Origins of Cocaine, challenging the standard theory of cocaine cultivation.
1:32:18-1:35:17: The Alcohol and Drugs History Society and the booming field of drug history.
1:35:17-end: Outro.


This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit isaaccampos.substack.com