Better Future with Michael Mezz

My guest today is Dr. Jason Hickel – professor at the Institute for Environmental Science & Technology (ICTA) at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, and author of The Divide and Less Is More. This is our second conversation on the podcast, and it comes at a moment of escalating geopolitical violence – in Iran, Lebanon, Cuba, and beyond.

In this episode, we get into how these conflicts are symptoms of capitalist imperialism: Western states asserting dominance over sovereign-seeking states to protect their own growth. We dive into ecosocialism as an alternative to capitalism, and what economic democracy actually looks like in practice. We cover China’s rise – how its economy actually works, why the West has turned against it, and what it means for the Global South – and we end with a discussion of how to build the mass movements capable of bringing a better future to life.

You can support the Better Future podcast by becoming a paid subscriber on Substack:
https://betterfuturemedia.substack.com/

Here are links to the resources mentioned in our conversation:
Mondragon Corporation, the worker-owned cooperative federation in Spain that Jason mentions as a real-world model of economic democracy: https://www.mondragon-corporation.com/en/
GKN Factory in Florence, Italy, which workers have converted from an auto parts plant into a solar panel factory: https://jacobin.com/2023/04/italy-gkn-factory-occupation-transform-production-workers-jobs-climate-change
Jason’s Substack article on “delinking”: https://jasonhickel.substack.com/p/what-is-delinking
Global Inequality Project, a research platform by Jason and team that publishes data on imperialism, unequal exchange, and global inequality: https://globalinequality.org/

Learn more about Jason Hickel and his work: https://www.jasonhickel.org/

Follow Jason Hickel on social media: 
Twitter: https://x.com/jasonhickel 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjasonhickel/ 
Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/jasonhickel.bsky.social

Subscribe to the Better Future podcast on your preferred platform:
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833
Pocket Casts: https://pca.st/4mgozhfv

Follow Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michael__mezz/

Follow the Better Future Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/

00:00 What capitalism really is
01:09 Introducing Jason Hickel
02:20 Capitalist imperialism in action: Venezuela, Iran, Lebanon
05:27 Why the US supports Israel
08:45 Capitalism, coups & the war on sovereignty
22:13 How capitalism creates poverty
25:25 Socialism as a solution
31:41 Why solving the climate crisis means overcoming capitalism
36:09 Economic democracy in practice
48:09 Elections vs. revolution: building a mass movement
57:01 The immiseration of the Western working class
59:28 Socialism is our best alternative to fascism 
1:06:31 The limits of identity politics
1:13:52 Why the West fears China’s rise
1:20:16 How China builds what the West won’t
1:32:54 Delinking from the capitalist law of value 
1:38:02 Hope for a better future
1:46:51 Conclusion

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta
Guest: Jason Hickel
Editor: Nuria Salgado
Designer: Amea Wadsworth
Producer: Jade Risser

Thanks for watching episode 016. Stay tuned for more!

My guest today is Johan Rockström – one of the world’s leading climate scientists and the co-creator of the ‘planetary boundaries’ framework. His work is the scientific foundation for much of the new economic thinking I've explored on this show.

We recorded this conversation at the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, and our discussion covers why the climate crisis is no longer a purely environmental or moral issue but a question of security, resilience, and prosperity. We also dive into the nine planetary boundaries – what they are, how many we've breached – and the ecological tipping points we are approaching within the earth system. We end with a discussion of the path forward, including needed transformations across our energy and food systems – and how some countries are starting to lead the way toward a better future.

You can support the Better Future podcast by becoming a paid subscriber on Substack:
https://betterfuturemedia.substack.com/

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Johan references the second EAT-Lancet Commission report, which found that the way we produce and consume food is now the single largest cause of breaching planetary boundaries: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(25)01201-2/abstract

He also references this Nature paper on the combined role of climate change and deforestation in pushing the Amazon rainforest across a potential tipping point: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-026-10456-0

At the end of our conversation, we discuss the Second Conference for the Just Transition Away from Fossil Fuels, which is happening next year in Tuvalu: https://transitionawayconference.com/

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Follow Johan Rockström:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johan-rockstr%C3%B6m-325551331/
X: https://x.com/@jrockstrom

Follow the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research:
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PotsdamInstitute
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/pik-potsdam-institute-for-climate-impact-research/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pik_klima
X: https://x.com/PIK_Climate

Subscribe to the Better Future podcast on your preferred platform:
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833
Pocket Casts: https://pca.st/4mgozhfv

Follow Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michael__mezz/
Follow the Better Future Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/

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00:00 Ecological overshoot – but there is a path forward
00:49 Introducing Johan Rockström
01:37 Narrative shift: climate is becoming a security issue
06:44 Planetary boundaries, explained
10:46 The Great Acceleration & the Anthropocene
13:35 7 of 9 boundaries exceeded but it’s not too late
22:20 Tipping points explained (with examples)
28:12 Debunking climate misinformation
34:41 What we need to do: Innovate within constraints
37:56 Energy transition & food system transition
42:01 The political economy of solving the climate crisis
44:44 The path forward: Building coalitions of the willing
51:59 Conclusion

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Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta
Guest: Johan Rockström
Producer: Jade Risser
Editor: Nuria Salgado
Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching episode 015. Stay tuned for more!

My guest today is Kate Raworth – renegade economist, author of Doughnut Economics, and co-founder of the Doughnut Economics Action Lab. We get into why mainstream economics leaves out ecology, inequality, and human wellbeing – and what a 21st century economic framework should look like. Kate introduces doughnut economics: a model for meeting the needs of all people within the planetary boundaries of the planet. We discuss the fictional character at the core of mainstream economics, the entrenched narratives holding us back, and how cities like Amsterdam are adopting doughnut economics to move towards a better future. 

Learn more about the Doughnut Economics Action Lab: https://doughnuteconomics.org/

Support the Better Future podcast by becoming a paid subscriber on Substack: https://betterfuturemedia.substack.com/

Subscribe to the Better Future podcast: 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz 
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0 
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833

Check out Kate’s website to learn more about her work: kateraworth.com

Find Kate’s book, Doughnut Economics, on Bookshop: https://bookshop.org/p/books/doughnut-economics-seven-ways-to-think-like-a-21st-century-economist-kate-raworth/c567b77a6aa8a1bf

Follow Kate on social media: 
Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/kateraworth.bsky.social
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kate-raworth-188399291/
X: ⁠https://x.com/KateRaworth

Follow Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michael__mezz/ 

Follow the Better Future Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/

Timestamps:
00:00 The myth of human nature
01:05 Introducing Kate Raworth
02:18 Should we trust economists?
09:03 The power of diagrams
11:14 Inside the doughnut
15:28 Externalities and earth systems
19:24 Rational Economic Man
28:01 Distributive ownership
31:05 Beyond the capitalism vs. socialism paradigm
39:29 Our addiction to growth
43:53 From growth to thriving
46:15 Mapping our lock-ins to growth
51:35 Doughnut economics in action
01:03:18 Having kids and climate anxiety
01:08:13 Kate as a circus ringmaster
01:19:52 Conclusion

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta 
Guest: Kate Raworth 
Producer: Jade Risser
Editor: Nuria Salgado 
Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching episode 014. Lots more on the way!

My guest today is Olivier De Schutter – UN Special Rapporteur on Extreme Poverty and Human Rights, and one of the most important voices in the global movement to redesign the economy around human wellbeing rather than endless growth for the ultra-rich.

We recorded this conversation at the +Wellbeing Economy Forum in Iceland, and our discussion covers a lot of ground – the myths that prop up capitalism; the winners and losers of globalization; the case for economic democracy; how to direct capital toward care work and the solidarity economy; and what a post-growth transition would actually look like.

For a detailed picture of the policies that can guide this transition, you can view the newly-released roadmap “Eradicating Poverty Beyond Growth” here: https://www.neep-poverty.org/roadmap-for-eradicating-poverty-beyond-growth/

Support the Better Future podcast by becoming a paid subscriber on Substack: https://betterfuturemedia.substack.com/

Learn more about the Wellbeing Economy Forum, an annual conference in Iceland for the wellbeing economy movement: https://www.wellbeingeconomyforum.com/

Subscribe to the Better Future podcast on your preferred platform:
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz 
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0 
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833

Follow Olivier on social media: 
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olivier-de-schutter-83990552/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/odeschutter/
X: https://x.com/DeSchutterO

Follow Michael on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/MICHAEL__MEZZ/
Watch our clips on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/betterfuturepod/

00:00 Intro: The economy panders to the rich 
00:58 Introducing Olivier De Schutter
01:47 Why capitalist efficiency is a myth 
07:19 Has capitalism actually defeated poverty? 
12:27 The commodification of life and the dismantling of the commons 
16:28 The winners and losers of growth and globalization
22:21 The progressive alternative to protectionism 
30:38 Why we need economic democracy 
35:46 The Easterlin paradox: growth without happiness 
39:34 Post-growth as a culture shift 
43:10 How international debt traps the Global South 
50:43 Care work, wages, and the solidarity economy
59:00 Recessions are not post-growth 
01:02:45 Conclusion

Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta 
Guest: Olivier De Schutter 
Producer: Jade Risser
Editor: Nuria Salgado 
Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching episode 013. Stay tuned for more!

My guest today is Rob Hopkins – co-founder of the Transition Network, a global movement supporting communities to reimagine and rebuild their local economies in response to climate and economic crisis. He's the author of several books, including his most recent, How to Fall in Love with the Future, which makes the case that imagination – not fear – is the most powerful force for change we have. We discuss the limits of the climate movement’s fear-based narrative, Afrofuturist and other resistance movements bringing Rob and Michael hope, and what it means to build a mass longing for a better world. We also did a live imagination exercise with the audience – and you'll want to stick around for it.

This was the first-ever live interview on the Better Future podcast, recorded at ChangeNOW in Paris.

Learn more about Rob and his work: https://www.robhopkins.net/ 

Find his new book, How to Fall In Love With The Future, on Spotify and Bookshop.

Support the Better Future podcast by subscribing: 
Substack:⁠ https://michaelmezzatesta.substack.com/⁠ 
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@michaelmezz 
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/16K0dkbk35q0mTslKJJ7z0 
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-future-with-michael-mezz/id1823942833

Follow Rob on social media: 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/robhopkins5085/
X: https://x.com/robintransition
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-hopkins-09442948/

Learn more about ChangeNOW, an annual climate solution conference in Paris: https://www.changenow.world/

Timestamps:
00:00 Filling our minds with stories of hope
00:53 Introducing Rob Hopkins 
02:14 Why the future is being canceled (and colonized)
03:34 The problem with the climate movement
08:02 Afrofuturism, Sun Ra, and filling the future with stories 
12:15 What “longing” means - and why it matters 
16:43 Filling our minds with better stories
21:39 Is climate optimism naive?
26:04 Evidence-based dreaming 
29:21 Stopping the rise of the far right: the UK Green Party
33:10 Why fascism hates creativity 
38:33 Afrofuturist history & reimagining the future from the US
43:20 Live exercise: Imagining a better future
48:27 Conclusion

Credits:
Host/Creator: Michael Mezzatesta 
Guest: Rob Hopkins 
Producer: Jade Risser
Editor: Nuria Salgado 
Designer: Amea Wadsworth

Thanks for watching, and see you soon!