Supported by Our Partners• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.• The Software Engineer’s Guidebook: Written by me (Gergely) – now out in audio form as well.—How do you get product and engineering to truly operate as one team? Today, I’m joined by Ebi Atawodi, Director of Product Management at YouTube Studio, and a former product leader at Netflix and Uber.Ebi was the first PM I partnered with after stepping into engineering management at Uber, and we both learned a lot together. We share lessons from our time at Uber and discuss how strong product-engineering partnerships drive better outcomes, grow teams, foster cultures of ownership, and unlock agency, innovation, and trust.In this episode, we cover:• Why you need to earn a new team's trust before trying to drive change• How practices like the "business scorecard" and “State of the Union” updates helped communicate business goals and impact to teams at Uber• How understanding business impact leads to more ideas and collaboration• A case for getting to know your team as people, not just employees• Why junior employees should have a conversation with a recruiter every six months• Ebi’s approach to solving small problems with the bet that they’ll unlock larger, more impactful solutions• Why investing time in trust and connection isn't at odds with efficiency• The qualities of the best engineers—and why they’re the same traits that make people successful in any role• The three-pronged definition of product: business impact, feasibility, and customer experience• Why you should treat your career as a project• And more!—Timestamps(00:00) Intro(02:19) The product review where Gergely first met Ebi (05:45) Ebi’s learning about earning trust before being direct(08:01) The value of tying everything to business impact(11:53) What meetings looked like at Uber before Ebi joined(12:35) How Ebi’s influence created more of a start-up environment (15:12) An overview of “State of the Union” (18:06) How Ebi helped the cash team secure headcount(24:10) How a dinner out helped Ebi and Gergely work better together(28:11) Why good leaders help their employees reach their full potential(30:24) Product-minded engineers and the value of trust (33:04) Ebi’s approach to passion in work: loving the problem, the work, and the people(36:00) How Gergely and Ebi secretly bootstrapped a project then asked for headcount(36:55) How a real problem led to a novel solution that also led to a policy change(40:30) Ebi’s approach to solving problems and tying them to a bigger value unlock (43:58) How Ebi developed her playbooks for vision setting, fundraising, and more(45:59) Why Gergely prioritized meeting people on his trips to San Francisco (46:50) A case for making in-person interactions more about connection(50:44) The genius-jerk archetype vs. brilliant people who struggle with social skills (52:48) The traits of the best engineers—and why they apply to other roles, too(1:03:27) Why product leaders need to love the product and the business (1:06:54) The value of a good PM(1:08:05) Sponsorship vs. mentorship and treating your career like a project(1:11:50) A case for playing the long game—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• The product-minded software engineer• Working with Product Managers as an Engineering Manager or Engineer• Working with Product Managers: advice from PMs• What is Growth Engineering?—See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email
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