Agile Mentors Podcast

• #151: What AI Is Really Delivering (and What It’s Not) with Evan Leybourn & Christopher Morales

  Is AI underdelivering? Or are we asking the wrong questions? This episode breaks down what actually leads to business ROI with AI (and no, it’s not more automation). Overview What if AI isn’t the silver bullet—yet—but the bottleneck is human, not technical? In this episode, Brian Milner chats with Evan Leybourn and Christopher Morales of the Business Agility Institute about their latest research on how organizations are really using AI, what’s working (and what’s wildly overhyped), and why your success might hinge more on your culture than your code. References and resources mentioned in the show: Evan Leybourn Christopher Morales Business Agility Institute From Constraints to Capabilities Report Delphi Method #93: The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leybourn #82: The Intersection of AI and Agile with Emilia Breton #117: How AI and Automation Are Redefining Success for Developers with Lance Dacy AI Practice Prompts For Scrum Masters Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Evan Leybourn is the co-founder of the Business Agility Institute and author of Directing the Agile Organization and #noprojects; a culture of continuous value. Evan champions the advancement of agile, innovative, and dynamic companies poised to succeed in fluctuating markets through rigorous research and advocacy. Christopher Morales is a seasoned digital strategist and agile leader with over 20 years of experience guiding organizations like ESPN, IBM, and the Business Agility Institute. As founder of Electrick Media, he helps U.S. and European businesses harness AI to make smarter, more sustainable decisions in a rapidly changing world. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We are back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. We've kind been a little bit off and on recently, but I'm back, I'm here, I'm ready to go, and we've got a really good episode for you today. I've got two, two guests with me. I know that's not a normal thing that we do here, but we got two guests. First, we have Mr. Evan Layborn with us, who's back. Welcome back, Evan. Evan Leybourn (00:23) Good morning from Melbourne, Australia. Brian Milner (00:26) And Christopher Morales is joining us for the first time. Christopher worked with Evan on a project and we're going to talk about that in just a second, but Christopher, welcome in. Christopher Morales (00:35) Yeah, good evening. Nice to be here. It's very late here in Germany. So this is an international attendance. Brian Milner (00:42) Yeah, we were talking about this just as we started. I think we have pretty much all times of day represented here on this call because we've got morning here from Evan. We've got late evening here for Christopher and I'm kind of late afternoon. So we're covered. All our bases are covered here. But we wanted to have these two on. They both work for a company called the Business Agility Institute. And if you have been with us for a while, you probably remember Evan's episode that we had on last year when we kind of talked about one of the studies that they had done. Well, they put out a new one that I kind of saw Evan posting about. And I thought, wow, that sounds really, really interesting. I really want to have them on to talk about this. It's called From Constraints to Capabilities, AI as a Force Multiplier. The great thing about the Business Agility Institute is they get into the data. They do the research, they put in the hard work, and it's not just speculation. It's not just, that's one guy's bloated opinion, and do they know what they're talking about or not? So that's what I really, really appreciate about the things that come out of the Business Agility Institute is they're factual, they're data-based. So that's what I wanna start with, I guess, is... What was the genesis of this? What did you guys, how did you land on this as a topic and how did you narrow it down to this as a topic? Where did this start? Evan Leybourn (02:07) Well, quite simply, it started from almost a hypothesis around so much of the conversation around AI. And let's face it, there is a lot of conversation around artificial intelligence and specifically generative, predictive and agentic AI. Focuses on the technology. And yet when we talk to organizations, a lot of them don't seem to be seeing a positive return on investment, a positive ROI. And we needed to understand why, why these benefits of like three times products or operational efficiency product throughput, three times value creation, Why weren't companies seeing this? That's really what we were trying to understand. Why? Brian Milner (03:01) Yeah, that's a great basis for this because I think you're right. There's sort of this, I would imagine there's lots of people out there who are kind of going through their business lives and hearing all these incredible claims that people are making in the media about how this is gonna replace everyone. And now it's, yeah, we can, I mean, you said 3X, I've heard like, 10 or anywhere from 10 to 100X, the capabilities of teams and that they can now do all these amazing things. And if I'm just going through my business career, I'm looking at that from the outside going, is this fact or is this fantasy? this just a bluster or is this really, really happening? So I really appreciate this as a topic. A little bit of insider baseball here for everybody. You guys talk about in this report that you use a specific method here, the Delphi method. for data geeks here, or if you're just kind of curious, would you mind describing a little bit about what that means? Evan Leybourn (04:00) Chris, do you want to take that one? Christopher Morales (04:01) Yeah, well, so the idea behind using the Delphi method was actually inspired by my sister. She had done a periodic review that utilized this method. And essentially what it is is we utilize rounds of inquiry with an expert panel to refine the research, the feedback that we're getting. And so we collected an initial set of data. reviewed that data, tried to analyze it to come up with a consensus, and then repositioned our findings back to the experts to find out where they stood based on what they gave us. And really trying to get all of the experts to come to an agreement in specific areas. In the areas that we found gray space, for instance, or let's say, data was spread out, right? Those were really the areas where we're really trying to force these experts to get off of the fence and really make an assessment. And it was proved extremely helpful, I think, in this research because what I find in the AI space is that there is plenty of gray. And we really wanted to get to some stronger degree of black and white. I'm not going to say these findings are black and white, but I will say that in order to guide people, you need to give them degrees of confidence. And I feel like that's what we wanted to do with this. Brian Milner (05:31) Well, that's the great thing about research though, Is it can give you information, but there's always the story. And it's really kind of finding that story that really is the crux of it. So we open this saying, fact or fiction. So just hit us up with a couple of the, maybe some of the surprising findings or some of the key things. For the people you talk to. Christopher Morales (05:38) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (05:53) Were they seeing these amazing kind of, you know, 100 X of their capabilities or what was the reality of what people reported to you? Evan Leybourn (06:01) In a few cases, yes. Maybe not 100x, but 8x, 10x was definitely being shown. But the big aha, and I won't say it was a surprise, was really in a lot of organizations, the teams that were using AI were seeing Brian Milner (06:03) Okay. Evan Leybourn (06:23) absolutely massive improvements. People talk about going from months to minutes in terms of trying to create things. And so there's your 100X. But when we look at it at a business level and the business ROI, when we look at the idea to customer from concept to cash, when we look at the overall business flow, very few of those organizations saw those benefits escape from the little AI inner circle. And so that 10x or the 100x improvement fizzles into nothingness in some cases. negligible improvement in the whole organization. Some organizations absolutely saw those benefits throughout the entire system. And those were organizations who had created a flow, who created organizational systems that could work at the speed of AI, especially some of the younger AI native organizations, if you want to think of them that way. But no, most organizations those 10x, 100x kind of goals were unachievable for the business. And so when I was saying 3x, by the way, what we sort of tended to find is those organizations, mature organizations with mature AI programs and systems. we're generally seeing between a 1.2 to 1.4x improvement to about a 2.8 to about a 3.2x improvement. So that's like a 20 % to a 300 % improvement if you want to think of it this way. Brian Milner (08:15) Wow. Well, that's nothing to sneeze at. That's still really, really impressive. Christopher Morales (08:19) yeah, it'll make a significant difference. I think for me the interesting thing about the findings is that there's two areas that I think will pose a really interesting question for people who read the report, and that is this idea of being very intentional about identifying your goal, right? I don't know how many organizations are really meaningfully identifying what their expected outcome is. And I think the other thing, which we didn't really talk about much in the report, but I think plays a role in the conversation that's kind of bubbling to the surface here today, has to do with the human element inside of the organization. And while all of the organizations that we spoke to said that the human was a very important element and prioritized, There was a challenge in identifying specific initiatives that were being put in place to account for the disruption that the technology might have on the staff or the employees. And that wasn't surprising. That was kind of expected. But I think it's interesting that, you know, eight months after we released this report, I would argue that that's still the case. Brian Milner (09:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating because you're right. It's, it's, that's not the story you always hear, because you, you are hearing kind of more of taking the human out of the loop and making it more of just this straight automation kind of project. I want to ask really a question here though, Evan, said you made the distinction about it being more mature, groups, more mature organizations. I'm just curious, is that translate to, is there anything that translates there into the size of the organization as well? Did you find that more larger organizations had a different outcome than smaller, more nimble startup kind of organizations? Evan Leybourn (10:14) So age more than size. Younger organizations tended to be more, well, mean, they tended to be more agile. There's more business agility and through that greater benefits out of AI. These things are very tightly tied together. If you can't do... Brian Milner (10:18) Hmm, okay. Evan Leybourn (10:38) Agile or if you don't have agility as an organization, you're not going to do AI particularly well. And a piece of that goes to what you were just talking about in terms and you use the word automation, which is a beautiful, beautiful trigger word for me here because the reality is that the organizations that utilized AI, specifically generative or agentic AI, to automate their workforce rarely saw a high, like a strong return on investment. It basically comes down to generative predictive AI, generative and agentic AI tends not to be a good automation tool. It's non-deterministic. You pull a lever, you get one result. You pull the same lever tomorrow, you will get a different result. There are better tools for automation, cheaper tools for automation. And so we're not saying automation is bad. We're just saying that it's not the technology for it. The organizations that used it to augment their workforce were the ones that were seeing significant benefits. And now there are caveats and consequences to this because it does change the role of the human, the human in the loop, the human in the organization. But fundamentally, organizations that were automating or using AI for automation were applying an industrial era mindset and mentality to an information era opportunity. And they weren't seeing the benefits, not at a business level, not long term. And in some cases, did more harm than good. Brian Milner (12:28) That's really deep insight. That's really amazing to hear that. I'm interested as well. You found some places that were seeing bigger gains than others that were seeing bigger payoffs. Did you find patterns in what some of the hurdles were or some of the kind of obstacles that were preventing some of these that weren't seeing the payoffs from really taking full advantage of this technology? Christopher Morales (12:52) Yeah, absolutely. mean, we identified some significant constraints that, interestingly enough, when we talk about this, we obviously do workshops. So we were just at the XP conference doing a workshop. And when we talk about this, we identify the fact that our position is that the challenges to AI are a human problem, not a technology problem. And the findings reflect that because of the constraints that we found. only one of the major constraints was associated with technology and that was data primarily. The constraints that we identified had to do with normal operations within a business. So long budgeting cycles or the ability to make a decision at a fast rate of speed, for instance. These are all human centric challenges that independent of AI, If you're trying to run an efficient organization, you're trying to run an agile organization, right? Able to take advantage of opportunities. These are all things that are going to come into play. and, you know, as we like to say, like AI is only going to amplify that, right? So if AI can show you 20 more times, like the opportunities available to you is your organization going to be able to pivot? Do you have a funding model that can provide the necessary support for a given initiative? Or is the way things that run within the organization essentially giving you AI that provides you information that you can't move? Brian Milner (14:31) That's a great, yeah, yeah. Evan Leybourn (14:31) And think of it this way, if you're expecting AI to give you a three times improvement to product delivery, can your leaders make decisions three times faster? Can you get market feedback three times faster? And for most organizations, the answer is no. Brian Milner (14:51) Yeah. Yeah, that's a great phrase in there that Chris was talking about, like the AI will just amplify things. I think that's a great observation. And I think you're right. this is kind of, you know, there's been a thing I've talked about some recently in class. there's a... I'll give you my theory. You tell me if your data supports this theory or not. I'm just curious. You know, we've been teaching for a long time in Scrum classes that, you know, there's been studies, there's been research that shows that when you look at the totality of the features that are being completed in software development, there's really a large percentage of them that are rarely or never used, right? They're not finding favor with the audience. The audience is not using those capabilities. And so my theory, and this is what I want you guys, I'm curious what your thought is. If AI is amplifying the capability of development to produce faster, then my theory is that's going to only expand the number of things that we produce that aren't used because the focus has been sort of historically on that it's a It's a developer productivity issue that if we could just expand developer productivity, the business would be more successful when those other former studies are saying, wait a minute, that may not be it. We need to focus more on what customers really want. And if we knew what they really wanted, well, then, yeah, then productivity comes into play. But That's the human element again, right? We have to understand the customer. have to know. So I'm just curious again, maybe I'm out on a limb here or maybe that doesn't line up, how does that line up with what you found? Evan Leybourn (16:41) So the report's called From Constraints to Capabilities. And Chris, we spoke about the constraints. So maybe let's talk about the capabilities for a second. for the listeners who are unfamiliar with the Business Agility Institute, the model that we use for the majority of our research is the domains of business agility, which is a behavioral and capability Brian Milner (16:45) Ha ha. Yes. Evan Leybourn (17:04) Now, in that model, there are 84 behaviors that we model against organizations. But in this context, more importantly, were the 18 business capabilities. And so what we found was that the organizations that were actually seeing an improvement weren't the ones with the capabilities around throughput. So one of the capabilities deliver value sooner. That wasn't strongly tied. So the ability to deliver value sooner wasn't strongly tied to seeing a benefit from AI. But the ability to prioritize or prioritize, prioritize, prioritize, something so important we said it three times, was one of the most strongly needed capabilities. It correlates where organizations that were better at prioritization, at being able to decide which feature or area, what thing to do was the next most important thing. If you're got AI building seven or eight prototypes in the same time you used to be able to create one, great, you now have seven or eight options. Not that seven or eight are going to go to market. but you're going to decide, you've got more optionality. So it's not that you're be delivering more faster, though in some cases that is obviously the case, but you've got more to choose from so that if you make the right decision, you will see those business benefits. But the capability that had the strongest, absolute strongest relationship to seeing a benefit from artificial intelligence was the ability to cultivate a learning organization. That's not education, that's around learning, experimentation, trying things, testing things, being willing as an organization to say, well, that didn't work, let's try something else. And those learning organizations were the ones that were almost universally more successful at seeing a business benefit from their AI initiatives than anybody else. So yeah, just because you can develop features faster, it means nothing if it's not the right features that the customers want. And that comes from learning and prioritization and there are other capabilities unleashing. workflow creatively and funding work dynamically, for example, that came out strongly. But I just really wanted to highlight those two because that's the connection that you're looking for. Christopher Morales (19:43) Yeah. And if you think about your question ties directly into something that we heard at the conference we were just at, likening to technical debt. So we're actually starting to see the increase in technical debt because of the influence that AI and software development is having in the creation of code and so on and so forth. And so... I think that what you're saying is spot on in terms of your theory. And I think that this speaks to what I believe we should really kind of amplify, right? AI is going to amplify certain things that aren't positive. I think leadership, think businesses need to start amplifying a conversation around... Are we approaching this the right way? What are the ultimate outcomes that we may see? And can we take that on? So if our developers are increasing the amount of technical debt that we have because we've integrated AI or adopted AI, what are we doing about that? What is the new workflow? What does the human in the loop do on account of this new factor? that we need to take into place because ultimately things like that make their way to the bottom line. And we know that's what CEOs care about. Brian Milner (21:02) Yeah, wow, this is awesome. I just want to clarify with sort of the learning organization ability, just want to make sure I'm clear. What we're saying here is that it's organizations that already have that kind of cultural mindset, right? That the background of a learning organization that see a bigger gain from this, or are we saying that AI can makes the biggest influence of impacting how learning an organization is. Evan Leybourn (21:34) The first, ⁓ the arrow of causation is that learning organizations amplify or improve or are more likely to see a benefit from AI. It's not a bad, and I should say we're not looking at how effectively you can Brian Milner (21:35) Okay. Evan Leybourn (21:57) deploy an AI initiative. It's about a we looked at AI as a black box. Let's assume or as in the cut through the Delphi method, the companies that we were speaking to had been doing these for years. These were mature established organizations. And the so it wasn't looking at how effectively you could deploy AI. But rather You've got AI, it's integrated. Are you seeing a business benefit from it? And those organizations that were learning organizations were more likely to be seeing a benefit, much, much more likely to be seeing a benefit. Brian Milner (22:40) Yeah. There's one phrase that kind of jumped out at me that I thought maybe one or both of you could kind of address here a little bit. I love the phrase, kind of the metaphor that you used in there about shifting from a creator to composer. And I'm just wondering if you can kind of flesh that out a little bit for us. Help us understand what that looks like to move from a creator to composer. Christopher Morales (23:01) Yeah, I'll start, but I think Evan will touch on it as well, because I do think it's a fascinating position, is how I'll phrase that. So when we think about creator to composer, we're talking about a fundamental shift on how a human is utilized within an organization. So if we eliminate AI from the equation, The human, your employees are acting as creators at some level, at some degree. Okay, so I have a media background, so I'm doing a lot of marketing. And I think that this is appropriate to use as an analogy, because I think a lot of marketers are utilizing AI right now. So independent of AI, that marketer is required to take into consideration all of these different factors about the business, create copy, let's say. create a campaign, do all of this real like hands on thoughts and levels. Now you bring AI into the equation and there are certain elements of these tasks that are being supported, offloaded in some cases. I'm not gonna get into my opinions about what is right and what is wrong here, but what I will say is there is a change in that workflow. And so what is... fundamentally at play here is that that marketer is now working in conjunction with something else. And so it is critically important that that marketer develops the skills to compose with the AI in a sense of, now know how to direct, I know how to steer a conversation, steer a direction. in order to get to a meaningful and hopefully valuable output utilizing the assist of the AI. And Evan, I'll toss over to you because this is the area, just so you know, Brian, this area of the report is the one that this podcast could turn into an hour and a half long podcast. Evan Leybourn (25:08) So I'll try not to make it an hour and a half, but just to build on what Chris said. Brian Milner (25:11) Ha Evan Leybourn (25:12) So this created to compose a shift, it changes the role of the human in the loop. It changes the responsibilities. And there's a quote in the report, AI is an unlimited number of junior staff or junior developers if you're a technologist. And that comes with some deep nuance because we all know that junior staff there is a level of oversight and validation required. So if you're creating through your AI colleague, let's call them that, if you're collaborating with AI, the AI is creating, then every human shifts into that composer mode and moves up the value chain. So your junior most employees, right? start to take on what would be traditionally management responsibilities. Now, this isn't in the report, but this is sort what we found after, right? Was that there were three sort of skill areas that needed to be taught to individuals in order to be effective and successful with AI or to collaborate in an AI augmented workforce. The first one was product literacy. So the ability to define and communicate use cases and user stories, design thinking techniques and concepts, the ability to communicate what good looks like in a way that somebody else understands, this somebody else, of course, being the AI counterpart. And product literacy, again, your senior employees have that, but that's got to Everyone now needs that. The second is the skill of judgment or critical thinking. The ability to, for anyone here who has a background in lean, pulling the and on court. The ability to and the confidence to, which are two separate skills, actually say, no, what AI is doing here is wrong. We're going to do something different. I'm going to say something different. I'm going to suggest. I'm going to override AI. I'm going to pull the hand on cord and stop the production line, even though it's going to cost the organization money. But because if I don't, it's going to be much, much worse. And so that ability to use your judgment and the confidence to use judgment, because let's face it, AI can be very compelling in its sounds accurate. So you've to be able to go, hang on, there's something not right here, and use that judgment. And then the third is around feedback loops, or specifically quality control feedback. Because as a creator, the first round of feedback, the first round of quality control is implicit. It exists inside the heads and the hands of the creator. Like you're writing a document or creating a... a marketing campaign, you go, oh, I'm not happy with this, I'll change that, or maybe not that word. You're a software developer and say, oh, I don't like that line, that's not doing what I wanted, I'm gonna change it. So the first round of feedback, the first round of quality is implicit. But once you become a composer, the first round of feedback is explicit, right? Because you're taking what has already been produced. And so the, what we, What we found post report is that a lot of people do not have the skill or haven't, sorry, have not learnt the skill, how to do that first implicit round of feedback explicitly. And so it gets skipped. so AI outputs get passed through into... later stages of quality control and so forth. And obviously they fail more often. So it's a real issue. So it's those three skilled areas that we would say organizations fundamentally need to invest in, in order to enable their workforce to be augmented, to work with AI effectively. And the organizations that have those skills, the organization with who have individuals with those skills at all levels from the junior most employee are more successful. Now, I'm going to add one thing to this. I'm going to slightly go off topic because it is the one of the most common questions that we get when we teach this topic or we talk about it at conferences. And that is Brian Milner (29:44) Yeah Yeah, please do. Evan Leybourn (29:56) If AI replaces your junior employees and your junior employees go up a level, what's the pathway for the next generation to become the senior employee? And this is where I have to give you the bad news that no one has an answer for that yet. These very mature, very advanced organizations Right? Many of them were trying to figure it out. None of them had an answer. and that's the, and I'll be honest, I personally, and this is just Evan's opinion, believe that this will become or must be a society level problem, or solution to that problem. it will require businesses alongside governments, alongside, education institutions to make some fairly substantive shifts and I don't think anyone knows what they are today. Christopher Morales (30:53) Yeah, and I would only say to that, and again, there's so much I would love to inject here, but I will say that this is an opportunity, and I always stress that, because that is a little sobering when you think about that idea. But I really, really strongly encourage organizations that are evaluating this to, I understand the considerations about efficiency and bottom line benefit. Brian Milner (30:53) Yeah. You Christopher Morales (31:20) towards AI, and I appreciate that wholeheartedly. But I think this is a real opportunity for organizations to take a step back and really think about the growth path for the talent that you have in your organization. Because augmenting your workforce with AI, are studies, Harvard Business Review put out a study that indicated that an augmented employee was more productive and enhanced as if it had been working with a senior staff member and collaborated at a level that was equivalent to working within a team. So there are studies that show real benefit to the employee having an augmented relationship with AI. If an organization can take two steps back, think about that pattern, think about that elevation strategy for your talent. you're going to be doing so much more to keep yourself sustainable in what is arguably the most like, you know, I don't know, I don't even know the word I'm looking for. It's, the most chaotic time I can think of for businesses when it comes to technology adoption. Brian Milner (32:23) You Yeah, I agree. But there's also sort of, I don't know if you guys feel this way as well, but to me, there's sort of like this crackling kind of sense of excitement there as well, sort of like living on the frontier that like there's this unexplored country out here that we don't really know where all these things are going to shift out. But gosh, it's fun thinking that we get to be the ones who kind of do that experimentation and find out and see what's the next step in this evolution? What's the next growth? The patterns that we've used previously may not apply anymore or apply in the same way because so much of the foundation underneath that system has changed. So we got to experiment and find new things. I love the call there, the learning organization, that that being the primary thing that If we have that cultural value, then that's really gonna drive this because we can then say, hey, this isn't working anymore, let's try something else. And that's how we end up at a place where we have new practices and new workflows and things that will support this and augment it rather than hampering it being a constraint, like you said, yeah. Christopher Morales (33:48) Well said. Well said. Brian Milner (33:50) Awesome. Well, this is a fascinating discussion. I really could go on for the next couple of hours with you guys on this. is just my kind of hobby or interest area at the moment as well. So I really appreciate you guys doing the work on this and appreciate you sharing it with us and sharing some of the insights. Hey, and the listeners here, hey, they got a bonus from the report, right? You listed extra things that didn't quite make it in the report. Just make sure you understand that listeners, right? You got extra information here listening to us today. ⁓ So just any last words from you guys? Christopher Morales (34:19) Thank Yeah. Evan Leybourn (34:24) Just for the folk listening, treat AI not as a technical problem, but as a human and a business opportunity, requiring human and business level changes. Don't just focus on how good the technology is, because that's not where the constraints nor where the opportunities truly lie. I would also just like to call out that if anyone listening wants to learn more about any of these topics, the capabilities, the domains of business agility, visit the Business Agility Institute website, check out the domains, download the report. But we've also launched an education portfolio and we'll be running a different education course on each of the capabilities over the next, I think it's every two weeks almost until the end of the year. So please come and join us and let's go deep into these topics together. Christopher Morales (35:21) Yeah, and I would just say, Brian, to all the listeners out there, don't fall into what I think is a common fallacy, which is where we're going is predetermined. It's already set in stone. I think as Agilists, we know the power of flexibility, the ability to pivot, and the ability to utilize data and information to inform what our next move is going to be. And I think this is a classic case of you control the narrative. You control what AI looks like in your organization, in your team, in your workflow, and you have the ability to carve out how it impacts your world. And so I encourage people to look at it that way. Empower your humanity, empower your decision making. The AI is here, it's not going anywhere. So embrace it in the best way possible. Brian Milner (36:22) Yeah, it seems oddly ironic or maybe appropriate to quote from the Terminator movie here, but it sounds like what you're saying is no fate, but what you make. Christopher Morales (36:32) Prophetic, Brian, that's prophetic. Evan Leybourn (36:37) I love it. Brian Milner (36:37) Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much. I really appreciate you guys being on and obviously we're gonna have you back. you know, when you guys come out with new stuff like this, it's just amazing to dive deep into it. So thanks for making the time at all kinds of times of the day and coming on and sharing this with us. Christopher Morales (36:55) You're welcome. Evan Leybourn (36:56) Thank you.

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• #150: What “1 Billion” Scrum Classes Taught Us About Team Culture (and Captain America) with Cort Sharp & Laura Kendrick

  Laura Kendrick and Cort Sharp hijack the mic to share what it’s really like behind the scenes at Mountain Goat. From Zoom bloopers to unexpected team bonding, they unpack how a fully remote team built a thriving, human-centered workplace. Overview In this special takeover episode, Laura Kendrick and Cort Sharp pull back the curtain on what goes into running hundreds of Scrum and Product Owner classes virtually—and why Mountain Goat's remote team still feels so close-knit. With stories of early tech headaches, Slack banter, hilarious costume moments, and the quiet rituals that keep the team connected, they explore how remote work can actually foster strong relationships and top-tier collaboration. If you’ve ever wondered how to make a distributed team work (or just want a peek at some Zoom-era growing pains), this one’s for you. References and resources mentioned in the show: Laura Kendrick Cort Sharp #61: The Complex Factors in The Office Vs. Remote Debate with Scott Dunn #147: The Power of Quiet Influence with Casey Sinnema Run a Daily Scrum Your Team Will Love Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Cort Sharp is the Scrum Master of the producing team and the Agile Mentors Community Manager. In addition to his love for Agile, Cort is also a serious swimmer and has been coaching swimmers for five years. Laura Kendrick is the producer of the Agile Mentors Podcast and a seasoned Scrum Master who keeps virtual classes running smoothly. Outside the podcast, she helps clients apply Scrum techniques to their marketing and business strategy, bringing structure and momentum to big, creative ideas. Auto-generated Transcript: Laura Kendrick (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. As you may have noticed, I am not Brian Milner. I am Laura Kendrick, and this is Cort Sharp. And if you have taken a class with us at Mountain Goat in the last five years, there is a good chance that you have met one or actually both of us. Cort Sharp (00:19) I think it's like 90 % chance, 95 % honestly. We've been in so many of these classes. Laura Kendrick (00:26) Definitely, and oftentimes together too with one of us TAing, one of us producing, sometimes one of us teaching court. Cort Sharp (00:33) once in a while, once in a while. Yeah. Laura Kendrick (00:37) So we thought we would come on over here and hijack the podcast to share a little bit about some of the insights that we have gained from doing about a billion, maybe a little exaggeration. Cort Sharp (00:49) Roughly. Roughly. We've done roughly a billion classes with Mountain Goat. Yes. Laura Kendrick (00:56) We have seen a lot in the certifying of Scrum Masters and product owners and advanced product owners and Scrum Masters and all of the evolution of the classes that we have done. We actually hold quite a bit of insight into what is happening in this world. And so we thought we would come in, steal the podcast, and share a little bit of what we have seen, learned, observed, and really just kind of Honestly, some of the laughs and fun that we've had along the way. Cort Sharp (01:25) Also, I think, I don't know, just your intro right there is talking about, hey, we've seen the evolution of these classes. That just got my brain going of like, remember the first class that we did? Way like 2020. I mean, I was in my parents' basement with really terrible internet. It was a struggle. Laura Kendrick (01:40) Yeah. Cort Sharp (01:49) But we were working on like Miro boards or mural. One of the two, forget which, which tool it was, but that was, yeah, that was before team home. And then we got to see the first version of team home. We helped do a little testing with it. And then we've seen it grow all the way into this awesome tool that we have nowadays. And I don't know, just, just to me, I think it's cool to see how we've been iterating and be part of that process of the iteration process, um, to develop these classes and these courses into. Laura Kendrick (01:52) Mm-hmm. Mural. Yep. Mm-hmm. Cort Sharp (02:20) the truly awesomeness that they are today. Personally, I'd rather take a virtual class than an in-person class with Mountain Goat at this point. Laura Kendrick (02:27) It's funny that you say that because I notice actually the iteration of the experience like outside of the tech piece because you know, that's where my brain goes. Here's the difference between court and I. I'm noticing the interactions. But I've noticed, mean how people are interacting a little bit differently in the online space, how even our team interacts, like all of those things has become so much more sophisticated and amazing and Cort Sharp (02:39) Yeah, just a bit. Laura Kendrick (02:54) I mean, honestly, we sometimes talk on our team between like the producing and TA team where like I've referred to it as a perfect game if we don't need anything from the outside team, which occasionally we need a lot of support from the outside team, but we've we've got this down at this point. And it is it's become those first classes. I remember them being super stressful, like, my gosh, the breakout rooms and all the things and just being like, I mean, you couldn't do. Cort Sharp (03:17) Yes. Laura Kendrick (03:21) It was almost like learning how to drive where you felt like if you turned the radio knob up, you might actually turn the whole car. And it was like, so much anxiety. Cort Sharp (03:31) I mean, but we just didn't know Zoom then. Zoom didn't even know itself then, right? What Zoom is, ⁓ for those of you who don't know, we host all of our virtual classes on Zoom. And learning that platform, like I'd used it once maybe for some just, yeah, here's Zoom exists in one of my college classes. That was about it. But yeah, totally. was like, man, what does this button do? Hopefully it doesn't end the meeting and kick everyone out. Laura Kendrick (03:34) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Yeah, no kidding. But you know what's really interesting too, though, is that it's been over five years now for both of us being part of the Mountain Goat team. And we all work remotely. And other than you and Mike for a little while being right down the road from each other, none of us had any actual interpersonal interaction with each other outside of Zoom email and Slack and the occasional, know, fretted text message of like, are you late? Where are you? Cort Sharp (03:58) Absolutely, yeah, totally. Yeah. Laura Kendrick (04:26) But other than that it like we truly were of and still are a fully remote team and the crazy thing about it is we have at this point once gotten together as a full team in person and it was such an interesting experience being having been fully remote and then being in person and in particular the team that is live on the classes Cort Sharp (04:39) Yep. Yep. Laura Kendrick (04:51) It was a very different interaction because we have this time built into our classes where the team gets on the Zoom call 30 minutes earlier than the students do. And we get this time to just honestly have like water cooler chat and like friend chat or occasionally see Mike get on and you can't hear him, but you can see that he is quite angry at his very elaborate tech system that is not working correctly. Cort Sharp (05:14) you That does happen. Yes, it does. ⁓ Laura Kendrick (05:21) these moments, I feel like they really bonded us together. Because when we got together in person, it was old friends. wasn't even fast friends. It was old friends. And the banter even that goes on in Slack is fun and engaging and not rigid and confining. Cort Sharp (05:31) Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I agree with that. I mean, I'm just thinking back to like the first time because that was the first time I met you in person. aside from being like, wow, she's a lot shorter than I thought she would be. Laura Kendrick (05:47) Mm-hmm. shorter. By the way, court is like 6-4. Cort Sharp (05:55) Yeah, yeah. Not that you're short. But I've just always ever seen like, the profile like the profile picture. That's all that it's really ever been. So I'm like, yeah, you're like, what I would consider normal height, which you totally are. But in my mind, I was like, yeah, it's weird seeing, you know, your legs. That's funny. ⁓ Laura Kendrick (06:14) We digress. Cort Sharp (06:15) But aside from that, was like we've known each other for three, four, four years because we've had that time to get to know each other. We've had that time to talk about just life events, what's going on, where we live, what's happening, what the deal is going on with life. Because we've been very intentional about having that time with that. The 30 minutes before each class were originally very much so used to take care of any tech problems. As the years have gone by, we've for the most part figured out the tech problems. Sometimes, you know, we'll change something out. Laura Kendrick (06:48) Except, hold on, except last week in Lance's class, we were talking about his dog and suddenly it looked as though Lance in his entire room did a cartwheel because the camera just fell. This is not a small camera. Cort Sharp (07:02) It said, nope, I'm out. ⁓ man. Laura Kendrick (07:06) So we still occasionally have the tech problem. Cort Sharp (07:09) Yes we do, yes we do. That's why we still do the 30 vimits. Laura Kendrick (07:14) The crazy thing about that is that when we landed at this in-person meeting, there were members of the team that at that time, and I in particular had never had any interaction with. so like other than the odd email or Slack message, so it was like really knew their name, but didn't really work with them up until that moment. And it was really interesting because at one point, the way that the leadership team had mentioned of like, well, if you need somebody to step in and talk to Mike for you, if you're not comfortable. And I remember looking at court and being like, Mike's the one I'm most comfortable with in this room because of that 30 minutes. I feel like I know Mike. I feel like we have an actual interpersonal relationship where I have no problem speaking up and saying the things that I need to. And that has made like those little water cooler times, those little Cort Sharp (07:54) Yeah. Laura Kendrick (08:06) bantery questions, them asking about my kids or hobbies or whatever. And just knowing those things made a huge difference in our team functioning. The communication across time zones was so much better and easier and safer. Cort Sharp (08:24) Absolutely. We were talking a little bit before we were recording about just people who want pure in-person no matter what. I think at this point, I will always push back on that and say, you might not get that quote unquote collaboration time that's naturally built in, but if you're intentional about it and you provide the space and provide the resources, Laura Kendrick (08:32) Hmm. Cort Sharp (08:50) And also, kind of push people along, have some, I don't know, working agreements or something of, hey, our cameras are on whenever we're talking with each other, unless something like drastic is going on or something's happening, right? Which I think we're going to get into in a little bit, but it's massive. It's crazy. Laura Kendrick (09:03) That's huge. Yeah, I mean, it is. I think we can definitely speak to that in our own experience because we've had, of course, there are moments where people don't have cameras. There are moments where people have bad connections and we'll encourage them in class, like turn off your camera, save your bandwidth. But there are also moments where we are doing private classes for companies. In particular, we've done some with companies that work with like Department of Defense. So there's like real security. issues there and so they don't turn their cameras on. Their cameras are totally disabled on their computers. And it is, I have to say those classes are some of the most like energy draining classes I'm ever present in because I'll be there with the trainer and I feel like I have to give all this emotional feedback because when you are talking to a black screen, that's, it's really hard to just. Cort Sharp (09:47) Hmm. Laura Kendrick (09:58) survive that because you're not getting any feedback from anyone. So you don't know what's happening and you're constantly questioning and the kind of banter in your own mind is like, God, is it landing? Is it not? And you're just not getting any of that physical feedback. So I feel like when I'm on a class with a trainer like that, I feel like I have to be like, that's funny. I'm like, yeah, good point. Cort Sharp (10:19) Yeah, you're kidding. Laura Kendrick (10:21) I'm tired Cort Sharp (10:22) You No, I get that. And I've had some pretty similar experiences too. I might not be as in tune with the emotional side as stated earlier. So I might not help the trainers out nearly as much as I probably should. But I do think cameras on just can make all the difference. And again, situations where it's just not possible. Absolutely understand that. One of our trainers, Lance, he Laura Kendrick (10:39) Mm-hmm. Cort Sharp (10:47) He always likes to throw out the phrase, look, let's approach everything with grace, patience, and mercy. So I like, which I really appreciate, and I like that he throws that out there. But I think that's a good thing to keep in mind of like, know, even though you have the company policy, you have the working agreement, whatever it is that says, look, camera's on all the time, sometimes it's just not possible. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. I recently had to figure out internet in the middle of nowhere, because that's where I live now. Laura Kendrick (10:52) Mm. No. Cort Sharp (11:15) And I was worried for a while that I wouldn't be able to put my camera on. But, you know, if if they came down to that, I know that it would be, hey, you know, it's a it's a unique situation. It's something different. And we're going to do we're going to work the best that we can with it and try to figure out maybe you can turn your camera on for any time you're talking or just any time you have something to say or, you know, if you're agreeing with something, you could briefly turn your camera on to show like, yeah, I'm nodding. I'm agreeing. I'm doing whatever. Right. But Laura Kendrick (11:45) Honestly, I think recently I had a very busy day and we communicate in back channels, of course through email, but also we use Slack as a team. And so I sent a direct message to court about something and I just like, I sent it in a voice? No. And court's response was, didn't know you could do that in Slack. But in those moments, I think there are other ways of doing it too, where you can bring the humanity out, where it's not just words. Cort Sharp (12:01) Yeah. Laura Kendrick (12:09) So often I'm actually thinking about there was one time that you and I were talking about something and I misread it as like, I like kicked something, like some hornet's nest in there. Like you were upset with me, but you were like, no, that was not my intention. And it's an amazing thing that that's only happened once in five years. There was that subtle nuanced miscommunication of I thought I had offended in some way and I hadn't. Cort Sharp (12:18) So. Yeah. Laura Kendrick (12:34) Just keeping that in mind though, in written word, tone is interpreted because probably what happened is I like offended my kid or my partner and was bringing that into the conversation with court. And it had nothing to do with what was actually happening, but adding in those personal things of your face, your voice, those things really do help move that human connection, which enables the teamwork that we've seen at Mountain Go. Cort Sharp (12:42) Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. Laura Kendrick (13:00) I mean, it's amazing the way this team functions and it is not perfect. There are definitely communications missteps. There are definitely like, oops, forgot to leave that piece out of the information packet. It happens. It happens to everybody, but we're able to recover really quickly or even it's a safe enough space to be able to speak up and say, I think I got left out on this. And it's responded to in a really gracious and amazing way. Cort Sharp (13:26) It absolutely is. I mean, Mountain Goat's been remote for longer than the COVID stuff, the pandemic stuff happened. Laura Kendrick (13:33) Yeah. Well, Lisa's been with them for what, 10 years? I think it was nearly 10 years when we started, maybe 15. And Hunter's around the same. So yeah, they've been spread for a long time. Cort Sharp (13:42) Something like that, Uh-huh. ⁓ I know that they had an office space and that office space changed just in case people wanted to like come in, come to the office. I think at one point, one of them was in Colorado, which is kind of funny because several people live on the West coast. And then it's like, okay, yeah, come on, come on, swing by the... Colorado office on just a random Tuesday. Yeah, fly in, have fun. I don't know. Yeah, why not? I don't know what the deal was or what it was like, but they've been fully remote. And I think with the kind of runway that they've had leading up until the time where everyone had to be fully remote has really benefited Mountain Go in a lot of ways, because a lot of those early, like, how do we work remote? How do we do this? Laura Kendrick (14:09) I'd do that. Yeah, let's do it. Cort Sharp (14:31) kind of was ironed out, but back to your, your point to just like, it's, it's incredible how much support there is. It's incredible how much, how well communication again, it's not perfect, but how well we're able to communicate with each other and how well we're able to just say, yeah, let's, let's hop on a call real quick or here. I think most of us have like personal phone numbers. We, we use that as a very much so last resort type deal. Laura Kendrick (14:57) Yeah. Cort Sharp (14:59) But even then, it's nice to just have those open lines of communication and know that those are always available, but also know that people are kind of in our corner all the time too. And I think you have a pretty good story about this one. Something happened in a class a few years ago. Laura Kendrick (15:09) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It was early on we had, it was a non-Mike class. So it was one of the other instructors and there was a student who was just challenging. And in the end, it didn't go well in the moment, to put it, just to kind of like not go into grave detail about it. But Mike wasn't there, right? And so The thing that was interesting though is the first piece of communication that came from Mike, which was before that class even broke, right? Because it was one of those things of like, we have to share. As a team, we can't hide it. We have to share that something happened in class that was less than ideal. And so we did. And the immediate response from Mike was in support of the team. And later on, he did go and review the tape of the, because the classes are recorded, not for this purpose. They're recorded actually so that the students get a recording of the class afterwards and can return to what, you know, all the things that they learned because it's a lot to take in in two days. But in this one instance, it was beneficial in this way because Mike could actually see rather than taking people's words, what happened. And I think the important thing is not even what happened after, but what happened in the moment. that he instantaneously was like, I've got you. Like no matter how this goes, we're a team and I'm gonna support you as well. And that was actually, that was pretty early on for me. And it was in a moment where I didn't know Mike that well yet. And it was actually this very solidifying moment for me that was like, I'm in the right place. Like I am part of this team, not just a minion or an employee. Like they care about all of us. Cort Sharp (16:48) Mm-hmm. Laura Kendrick (16:56) and we're in this together, even if it turns out that we're in some form of trouble, it's still going to be thoughtfully managed and handled rather than just the kind of lashing out that can happen in so many environments. Cort Sharp (17:12) Right. And, and that experience, cause I think we were all included on that email. Like I, I wasn't in the class when it happened, but I do remember getting that email and it just was a clear communication from kind of head honcho Mike, right? A top dog saying, yeah, no, we, we got your back. on, we're on the same team. We're all working towards the same goal. And when I, when I read the email, I was like, wow, that was an eventful class. but. Laura Kendrick (17:26) Mm-hmm. us. Cort Sharp (17:38) My second thought, my second thought was, huh, this very similar to what you were saying of like, wow, this is a great place to be. This is a great company to work for. These are great people to be working with and alongside. ⁓ but also like, I know so many people whose managers, whose higher ups would say, Nope, you're in the wrong. You should have done better. Your toast, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like putting all the blame on you. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Laura Kendrick (17:52) Mm-hmm. Yeah. The knee jerk. Yeah. Yeah. Cort Sharp (18:07) And it just, makes me think all the time of like one really blessed, like very fortunate to be here, very fortunate to work with mountain goat. but also people don't quit jobs. They quit managers. They quit leadership more often than not. And, not that I'm talking about quitting mountain goat, but, neither, neither of us are throwing that out there right now, but just like, Laura Kendrick (18:20) Mmm. Yeah. No, but interestingly in five years, I've not seen anybody quit. I mean, we've had people kind of go down separate paths, but nobody has been throwing their hands up and been like, I'm done. I can't be in this. There have been people who have taken other opportunities that they needed to take for their own businesses. But yeah, nobody's quit. In five years, no one has quit, which speaks volumes to the culture that is created in an environment where Cort Sharp (18:37) Mm-hmm. Laura Kendrick (18:57) And I also want to be clear that that response from Mike also, it wasn't disparaging to the other party either. It was simply a, like, it just let us know that I see you and this, you were in a hard moment in the moment and you had to react like a human being and you as a team, I've got your back and this is, you know, great. And to be fair to that was like in the heat of COVID. Cort Sharp (19:24) Yes, yeah It was yeah Laura Kendrick (19:27) good times. But there's also been a lot of fun that's happened in class too, which is, I think that makes a big difference. Like where we are, I don't want to say allowed because I don't think that's right, but like part of the culture is to have fun. Like Mike is a pretty funny guy. Brian's a pretty funny guy. Like honestly, the whole team is quite humorous and it's, we're allowed to like make these really fun things and Cort Sharp (19:48) Yes. Laura Kendrick (19:52) in response to like when we see them in class, like, we foster those two and it becomes this really fun working environment, not only for us, for our students. You brought up one that I had totally forgotten about with the costume. That was good. Cort Sharp (20:06) ⁓ yeah, I, I, yeah, I'll, I'll get into the costume thing, but I think the word you're looking for instead of allowed is enabled. Like we're, we're enabled to have fun. We're encouraged. Absolutely. Yeah. A hundred percent. If you ever hung out with Mike or, or taking a class with him, you've probably heard some funny stories. Laura Kendrick (20:13) Yeah, Encouraged, in fact. And my gosh, the one class too where Mike was asked how long they'd have access to like the videos and stuff. my gosh, Mike ended the class and it was a super engaged Chipper class. Everyone was laughing and Mike brought it down. Cause he did his usual thing where he talked about, what does he say? You have access as long as the internet exists and I'm alive. And then he went into great detail. great detailed speculation about what will happen once he's not alive. It went on for like five minutes. Cort Sharp (20:58) Yeah, where where he's like, yeah, you know, my kids will probably be like, what's this? What's this old website that dad's still hosting? Guess we'll we'll close that up 10 years down the line or whatever. Laura Kendrick (21:09) Dumbfounded. It was so good. But anyhow. Cort Sharp (21:13) man. But there was, I don't even remember why this happened in the class. don't think it was around like Halloween time or something. think the person, actually, I think the person does this to go to like local children's hospitals or local hospitals and just visit. But I get on and I'm normally the PM producer. So I normally hop on in the afternoon. And I took over from Laura and Laura Kendrick (21:22) No, it wasn't. think so. Cort Sharp (21:39) Laura was like, yeah, you know, pretty normal class. This happens, whatever. We're good. And I hop on and people start turning their cameras on. And then all of a sudden there's this dude in a Captain America costume. Like what? He's got the mask. He's got the, the, the uniform. He's got the shield and everything. And I was like, what is happening? What is going on? Come to find out he was telling his story. Laura Kendrick (21:50) Like full on math. Cort Sharp (22:04) Yeah, I do this. This is cool. And Mike was like, that'd be awesome to see. He went out, put it on and took the rest of the classes Captain America. So we have certified Captain America. Laura Kendrick (22:12) Awesome. We've had, there was the guy who was put on like a crazy hat for the first session and then came back for session two with a different crazy hat. And then other people started wearing crazy hats. And by the end of it, like by the final session, almost the entire class was sitting there with some like their kids stuff on their heads. it was. Cort Sharp (22:34) You Laura Kendrick (22:36) But was this one, like it stands out of the billion classes we've done. It stands out in our minds as these really fun moments. I remember the class where it was a private class, so it was for a company or team. And there were, it took me until the very end to, it was early on, so it took me until the very end to get up the gumption. There were five mics in the class. And finally I was like, I'm just gonna put them all in the same room and see if anybody notices. Cort Sharp (22:36) People just... Yes. Didn't they notice like right away, they all came back and they're like, team Mike is back in action or something, right? Laura Kendrick (23:04) I don't think they said anything, but they did. The instructor went into the room and like, yeah, they noticed. Good. My passive aggressive humor worked. Cort Sharp (23:10) Hehehehehe It's fun. It's all good. But it's also like going back to us being able to do this before I figured out kind of my background situation, I would always put up virtual backgrounds and I would just change your background every time and see if people noticed. And it wasn't, it was a lot of Disney. Yes. Laura Kendrick (23:23) Mm-hmm. Disney. That's the thing though. That also, that kind of stuff built a little bit of a relationship as well. like it was, court was always going to have something for Disney. I had one that I would, when I finally found the one I liked, I kept that one for a long time. And Mike would occasionally, when I wasn't in a class, he would send me a screenshot of somebody via email and be like, somebody's in your house with you. Cause they would have the same background. Cort Sharp (23:52) Yeah! Laura Kendrick (23:56) those little tiny things make the relationships and make the team function and make us giggle. So I'd be like out with my kids and see an email and be like, oh no, Mike, what does he need? And then click in and be like, you know, actually more often than not, it would probably be like, am I missing class? See, I'd be like, oh, that's funny. But you know, it builds that relationship. And I think it's why this remote working has worked so well for us. And I'm totally with you where I, when people are Cort Sharp (24:13) You Yeah. Laura Kendrick (24:26) railing against it because of my experience. like, you're crazy. This is great. Cort Sharp (24:31) Exactly. I'm like, how can you not want to just chill out, hang out in your home, chat with some people, get some work done, and like, you're good. Who despises that? Who doesn't like that? don't know. It's, Exactly, yeah. But I do think it does, it comes down to being intentional with it. We were talking about that 30 minutes before that used to be primarily tech troubleshooting. Laura Kendrick (24:47) I know, you get to do things on your own time too. Cort Sharp (25:01) but has since kind of evolved into, okay, so everything, like, I don't know about you, but the vast majority of time, unless a camera's fallen, the vast majority of time, it's, all right, does everything look good? Yeah? Cool. Sure does. Whoever I'm working with, awesome. So, what'd you do this weekend? how was this? ⁓ sorry, sorry that the Avs lost to the Dallas Stars. Yeah, I'm sorry too. Stuff like that, right? Where it's just, Laura Kendrick (25:19) Yeah. It's water cooler talk. Cort Sharp (25:29) It's fun, but we're very intentional with having that time to do that. And I think if you're not intentional in setting up that time, whether if you're working remote hybrid, you're not going to get it. And it's not just going to naturally happen because it is so much more difficult to produce. it's impossible for it to just kind of naturally pop up without taking away from some other intentional time. so I think in, in this this world that we're living in where there is the option to work remotely and there is this really big push to go back in person. I'm saying stick with remote, take your 15, 15 minute daily standup, and turn it into, you know, say, Hey, I'll be on 10, 15 minutes early. If anyone wants to come hang out, come chat. And make it worth it. Make it a valuable time because that is the time to connect and that is the time to say, yeah, cool. How are the kids? How was your weekend? Did you grill up some good hot dogs during this last weekend? What'd you do? Like, what was going on? ⁓ Build up that stuff. Laura Kendrick (26:23) Yeah. We also have Slack channels too, that are like that. Like there's a Slack channel for our team that's just movies, books and TV shows. That people, it'll get active at certain times and it'll be totally dead for a while and nobody's cultivating it. It's simply that somebody will pop in like, I just watched this and it's great. And they've set up also like the automatic bots, cause Mike's a big fan of James Bond. So like if somebody mentions James Bond, the Slack bot will say something quippy and it- Cort Sharp (26:39) Yeah. ⁓ Laura Kendrick (26:58) But it adds that little, like, little bit of humor, little bit of humanness to even though, like, the people that we have time to interact with like that is the team that's in class. So I don't, I mean, it wasn't until we were in person that I met our CTO. He was kind of an enigma, you know? Cort Sharp (27:10) Yeah. Mm-hmm. He was just in the background. Things just magically showed up digitally. Laura Kendrick (27:23) It was in my email and my Slack sometimes, but it creates that thing of like, now I know things about Hunter. Yes, of course it was because we were in person. I heard lots of stories and all that fun stuff. But also I know about like some of his like TV watching stuff. I know occasionally like what his wife likes to watch because sometimes he'll like pepper in something that, she dragged me into this and not my cup of tea. But it's those little bitty things that you start to learn about the people. Cort Sharp (27:39) Mm-hmm. Laura Kendrick (27:50) that makes them human and gives that space. And I also, think it's important to have it be a little bit of white space. so often we talk about cultivating the conversation and like, can you have icebreakers and get people engaged? And yes, those things are so important, but when it's with a team, you need to do those things, but you also need to create the empty space where maybe you have that daily standup or that... weekly meeting or monthly meeting, whatever that is for your team. And maybe at the end of it, it's just leaving the call going and allowing people to just talk. I mean, we did that as a producer team that we would have a meeting as producers that would be very structured and then kind of the official meeting would end. And there would be times where as a team we'd be on that Zoom. I'm like, thank goodness nobody needs this channel. Cause like we'd be in there for like two and a half hours. Cort Sharp (28:26) Yeah. Yeah. Laura Kendrick (28:42) just talking. And of course, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't billing time. It wasn't, you know, it was just us being friends and hearing each other and sometimes ranting and complaining and doing the things of like, this part was hard and like, yeah, well, people need the space to do that and feel seen and heard. And the only place they're going to get that is in the white space. Cort Sharp (29:01) Yep. Exactly. Yep. And where my head went when you were talking about the white space, I love where you just went to because that's absolutely very true. But where my mind went was the newest kind of Slack channel that that's been set up, which is the artificial intelligence. Yeah. Where we just we just it's cool because I'm interested in AI. I think everyone's interested in AI right now. Things are things are going in all sorts of wild directions with it. There's there's all sorts of possibilities that we can do with it. Laura Kendrick (29:17) ⁓ Yeah, that one's Yeah. Cort Sharp (29:32) And Hunter just threw out, who wants in? If you want in, cool, I'll get you in. If not, and you're not interested in AI, let me know when you are, because it'll be at some point, I was going to say. It's just another full group one. Yeah, we just. Laura Kendrick (29:39) Yeah. Pretty sure the whole team's in there. But it is fun. Like Hunter and Mike do deep dives and Brian too. And I'm like, wow, I just get to swim in that pool. It's really Cort Sharp (29:50) Yes. Yeah, yeah. You just kind of get a glean from what's posted in there and say, oh yeah, I am really interested in the automation side of AI. I want to do, I think I threw in there one time, like this whole GitHub repository that has just from zero to hero AI, here's a two week crash course. And I've been working my way through that. It's taken a lot longer than two weeks for me. I've been working my way through that. And it's opened my eyes to say, okay, now this awesome thing, think Mike just threw in there something about someone using it at Disney, I think it was, and how they were using it at Disney to propose, here's a cool way that we can use AI to help our proposals go faster or help our marketing campaigns go faster or whatever it is. And just learning and seeing and... Laura Kendrick (30:38) Yeah. Cort Sharp (30:44) growing together as a team as well and having that space of, yeah, you know, here's what here, here are these articles that I'm reading. Here's the ones that stuck out to me. And to have that space, I think also is, is really interesting to me too, not just because I like learning, but it's also like, I feel like, okay, I can talk with Mike about AI. I can talk with Hunter about AI. I can talk with whoever about it. And we're all relatively on the same page because we're all relatively getting the same information. Laura Kendrick (31:14) Yeah, yeah. I feel like having the Slack channel has been really helpful and all the white space and even honestly the in-person event, there was white space built into that too. There was definitely a lot of structured meetings because of course when you are bringing everyone in from all over the country and actually the world, have a team member who is in the UK too. Cort Sharp (31:26) yeah. Laura Kendrick (31:37) flying a great distance and being in a space together, it's got to be structured. You have to make that worth the time and effort and investment. But also there were dinners, there were shows that happened, there was fun built into it, and there were options of not just like, I'm forcing you to go to this, but like, here's a choice. Would you like to do this or that? And those things have made a huge difference in breeding the like belongingness. Cort Sharp (31:55) Mm-hmm. Laura Kendrick (32:05) and the feeling like we are actually a team. And even though there are definitely times where the frustrations arise, of course, I mean, who doesn't have frustrations, but it's a space where they can be vocalized, they can be talked through, and it's all due to that togetherness that we have, that connectedness that has been built through, honestly, Cort Sharp (32:05) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Laura Kendrick (32:30) just being in these like casual fun spaces is where that comes from in my opinion. Cort Sharp (32:36) Yeah, I agree with that. Just having the space to talk about whatever. But I think it's all rooted in communication, right? So in various methods of communicating and various ways of communicating too, where it's not just exclusively Slack, email, written text, we have that space there. But we do still run into some communication problems, right? There's... Laura Kendrick (32:41) Yeah. For sure, for sure. Cort Sharp (32:58) there's all sorts of communication problems that we're gonna run into because especially we are text-based heavy, but we're not exclusively text-based. But I think you were talking about a story where Mike was late one time or Mike's late story about communication and what was going on with that. Laura Kendrick (33:12) he tells it in class. He tells a story in class with that. It's one of his examples that he will pull into fairly frequently with an experience with a team where somebody was always late to the daily standup and they realized that it had to do with the fact that they had to drop their kid off at school. And so it was that simple communication shift of asking instead of assuming, asking which... They've put into practice too, like I recall early on hearing like, do you prefer to be communicated with? And like we've had these conversations that court and I have a tendency to be more slack people. But Brian has stated that for him, like when he's teaching slack is like his emergency line. And so like knowing that I'm not going to send him something through slack unless I desperately need him to see it when I can land it in his email versus Lisa and Laura are much more Cort Sharp (33:43) yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Laura Kendrick (34:04) they're going to be in the email. Like that's just where they live and they are less likely to be in Slack. So it's just knowing those things have also helped us build the right kind of streams of communication. I'm pretty sure Hunter is everywhere all at once. Like he's omnipresent. You can get him anywhere. I know it. I'm in New York and he's in California. I'm pretty sure if I whispered his name, he's hearing it right now. Cort Sharp (34:06) Right. my gosh. He's the enigma. He's the enigma everywhere. I was gonna say, I'm surprised he hasn't popped into this. We've said his name three times. It's, he just knows everything and he's always got everything coming through and no matter what you need, he's any message away. Slack, email, could be carry your pigeon. I don't know, something like that, right? Laura Kendrick (34:43) Yeah, his next Halloween costume needs to be Beetlejuice, so I'm sending that to him. my goodness. But I think at the end of the day, the practices that have been put into place that you may have felt in our classes too, have helped really grow this team into what it is. There's a lot of strength here. There's a lot of fun here, but there's a lot of hard work here too. And a lot of, there have been hard moments where we've all just kind of put our heads down together and moved through the hard moments as a team with a lot of support and a lot of. Cort Sharp (35:12) Mm-hmm. Laura Kendrick (35:15) Just trying to be in it and be like kind of move things where it needs to go. I don't know what the right word is as a team. It's redundant. Cort Sharp (35:22) I think it. Yeah. But I think that that does show in our classes a lot, right? You and I have both taken a class outside of the mountain goat sphere, ⁓ and I'm not I'm not dogging on anyone. I'm not trying to talk down on anyone. But I got out of that class. I was like, man, we are light years ahead of that. Laura Kendrick (35:30) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cort Sharp (35:49) that kind of interaction and that kind of experience. was the information that I got out of that class was awesome, superb. It was great. But just the amount of energy and effort and time that has been invested into these Mountain Goat courses, it's far and away just, it shows. And it shows how much of a level up it is to take a class with Mountain Goat. And I do think partly, you know, I'm boosting my own ego here. But I do think partly it is because we are surrounded with some awesome people and we have some awesome people working together and awesome support on every call, every class that you take with us, right? You don't have to, like the instructor can focus on just instructing. And we, more often than not, we are typically in charge of everything else. Make sure that any tech problems, any issues, anything that's going on, right? Yeah. Laura Kendrick (36:32) Yeah. Yeah. I remember the early days. Like you just brought up a memory that apparently I had stored in the trauma bank. I remember the early days though being, because I would often, because I'm on the East Coast, court is in mountain times. So, often I would be the early person just because it's easier for me. was mid morning for me. we would start class and it would be just, especially honestly when like people were figuring out Zoom and all this stuff, it was... stressful. Like they were just, it was just question, question, question, problem, problem, problem. And we would get to the first breakout and I would send everyone away and the instructor would be like, that was great. And I'm like, was, you know, just totally frazzled. But the point was, is no one else felt that. And it was, I was in my Slack and working with the team, working with Hunter, things fixed, working with Lisa, making sure the person was in the right place. Cort Sharp (37:20) Yeah, glad. Mm-hmm. Laura Kendrick (37:33) and doing all these things. And though that has died down because we've all gotten very good at our job and the systems in place are amazing at this point, it still is like, that's the whole point. We worked as a team so that the instructor could deliver an amazing class and be present with his students. And we could be here or her, because we do have hers too, I should say. They're students. And we were here taking care of the things that needed to be taken care of, which was, yeah. Cort Sharp (37:54) Yes. Laura Kendrick (38:00) Though I had forgotten about that. Thanks for that. Cort Sharp (38:02) Yeah, sure. Yeah, it's gotten easy, right? ⁓ Laura Kendrick (38:04) Yeah, it does. But that's at the end of the day, that's how a good team is. I think that we can kind of end it with this thing of Mike has created this environment and it definitely comes from him. Like it's is rooted in the founder for us because we're a small team, small but mighty. But he it's rooted in his like engine of creativity, efficiency, and just love of innovation. And that has kind of Cort Sharp (38:18) Mm-hmm. Laura Kendrick (38:34) folding that in with seeing all the people as humans, and with flaws and different talents and all those things and human interaction is messy and folding all of that in has actually been what has bred these amazing class experiences for our students and also this rewarding and fantastic team experience for the people behind the scenes as well. And I think the lesson Cort Sharp (38:39) Yes. Yep. Laura Kendrick (38:59) comes from that, that if we can fold those things in together and make space for humans to be humans and also have this amazing expectation of creativity and innovation, then it's all going to happen. Cort Sharp (39:06) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I 100 % agree with that. I mean, it does come down to Mike and Mike is a fantastic leader. It's awesome. I also want to raise Mike, but. Laura Kendrick (39:28) Nice. Not passive aggressive at all. On that note. Cort Sharp (39:29) Yeah, you know. No. I'm just joking, right? We're able to have fun. We're able to joke around. But it does come down to leadership, right? And I think that's true on any team. And we have just we've been so fortunate to be able to experience it firsthand and go through this awesome transformation from being in person to fully remote, even in the class teaching stuff. And it's been really, really fun. really, really enjoyable. I, you know, you don't love every day. There are jobs, right? It's a job. But I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna lie. It has been fun. It has been enjoyable. But I don't look back on it and be like, wow, these last five years were just all terrible. No, it's we've had great leadership. We've had great interactions with with everyone. And I think Laura Kendrick (40:05) You should have just left it at really, really fun and enjoyable. Mic drop, goodbye. Cort Sharp (40:28) It's just come down to the people that we're working with and the people that we're engaging with consistently. And our leadership, Mike, has fostered an environment very, very well that is around fun, around communication, around enabling us to grow, to learn, to try new things, to move forward. And I really feel bad for companies who don't have that kind of leadership. that's, it's a tough spot to be in, but, I'm really, we're really blessed and really fortunate to, to be able to work here. And I hope this, this little peek behind the curtain, kind of encourages you to you, the listener, guess, whoever, whoever's out there to take a, take a little step back and say, okay, what, what am I doing as a leader within my sphere of influence to help my team be a little more human and embrace the humanity side of stuff? Not just pushing for more, we need more, more productivity, more AI, more everything, right? Yeah. Use AI, make it a tool, but just remember you're, building stuff for, for people. You're working with people all the time. And I think that's something that Mike has never forgotten and never will forget and never will let fall to the wayside that we're all people and we're all here working with each other. Laura Kendrick (41:43) Yeah. Couldn't agree more. Well, on that amazing note, thank you, Cort, for joining me in this hijacking of the podcast, the Agile Mentors podcast. And we're going to turn it back over to Brian, who's going to walk you right on out. Cort Sharp (41:54) Happy to.

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• #149: How Agile Action Drives Strategy with Boris Gloger

  What does it really mean to have a bias toward action and how do you build that into your culture without skipping strategy? Boris Gloger joins Brian Milner for a deep dive on experimentation, leadership, and the difference between tactical work and true strategic thinking. Overview In this conversation, Brian welcomes longtime Scrum pioneer, consultant, and author Boris Gloger to explore the tension between planning and doing in Agile environments. Boris shares how a bias toward action isn’t about skipping steps—it’s about shortening the cycle between idea and feedback, especially when knowledge gaps or fear of mistakes create inertia. They unpack why experimentation is often misunderstood, what leaders get wrong about failure, and how AI, organizational habits, and strategy-as-practice are reshaping the future of Agile work. References and resources mentioned in the show: Boris Gloger LinkedIn Leaders Guide to Agile eBook Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Boris Gloger is a pioneering agile strategist and Germany’s first Certified Scrum Trainer, known for shaping how organizations across Europe approach transformation, strategy, and sustainable leadership. As founder of borisgloger consulting, he helps teams and executives navigate complexity—blending modern management, ethical innovation, and even AI—to make agility actually work in the real world. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00) Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have the one, the only Mr. Boris Glogger with us. Welcome in Boris. Boris Gloger (00:11) Yeah, thank you, Eurobrein, for having me on your show. Brian Milner (00:14) Very excited to have Boris here. For those of you who haven't crossed paths with Boris, Boris has been involved in the Scrum movement, I would say, since the very, very earliest days. He's a CST, he's a coach, he's an author, he's a keynote speaker. He had a book early called The Agile Fixed Price. He runs his own consultancy in Europe. And he has a new book that's been, that's going to be coming out soon called strategy as practice. And that's one of the reasons we wanted to have Boris on is because there's kind of this topic area that's been percolating that I've heard people talk about quite often. And I see some confused looks when the, when the topic comes up, you hear this term about having a bias toward action. And, we just wanted to kind of dive into that a little bit about what that means to have a bias toward action. and really how we can apply that to what we do in our day-to-day lives. So let's start there, Boris. When you hear that term, having a bias toward action, what does that mean to you? Boris Gloger (01:12) The fun thing is I was always in tune with the idea because people said my basic mantra at the beginning of doing agile was doing as a way of thinking. So the basic idea of agile for me was always experimentation, trying things out, breaking rules, not for the sake of breaking rules, but making to create a new kind of order. the basic idea is like we had with test-driven development at the beginning of all these agile approaches and we said, yeah, we need to test first and then we have the end in our mind, but we don't know exactly how to achieve that. So there is this kind of bias towards action. That's absolutely true. On the other hand, what I've always found fascinating was that even the classical project management methodologies said, Yeah, you have to have a plan, but the second step is to revise that plan. And that was always this, do we plan planning and reality together? And actually for me at the beginning, 35 years ago, was exactly that kind of really cool blend of being able to have a great vision and people like Mike and all these guys, they had always said, we need to have that kind of a vision, we need to know. Yeah, if the product owner was exactly that idea, you have to have that vision, but you really need to get the nitty-gritty details of, so to say, of doing this stuff. Brian Milner (02:40) Yeah, that's awesome. And the thing that kind of always pops to my head when I think about this is, we hear this term bias toward action and there's sort of this balance, I think a little bit between planning and action, right? I mean, you wanna plan, you wanna plan well, but you don't wanna over plan. You don't wanna waste too much time trying to come up with a perfect plan. You wanna... you want to do things, but you also don't want to be, you don't want to rush into things. So how do people find that balance between not just, you know, going off, you know, like we say in the U S half cocked a little bit, you know, like just not, not really not ready to really do the thing that you're going to do. Cause you didn't really invest the time upfront, but on the other hand, not spending so much time that you're trying to get the perfect plan before you do anything. Boris Gloger (03:28) You know, the problem, for me, the issue was solved by when I figured out that the teams typically struggle not to achieve, for instance, the sprint goal or the end or whatever they wanted to accomplish when they have not the right know-how. So it's a knowledge problem. So for instance, I don't know if this is still the case, but sometimes developers say, need to... to immerse myself with that I need to figure that out. I need to get the new framework before I can do something about estimates or something. So whenever you hear that, that you know that person that just tries to give you an estimate or the team that would like to come into a sprint goal or whatever it is, they are not really knowing what topic is about. It's a knowledge gap. And then people tend to go into that analysis paralysis problem. They don't know exactly what they need to do. So therefore they need to investigate. But by doing investigation, you start making that big elephant in the corner, larger and larger and larger and larger because you go that ishikara diagram, you have too many options. It's like playing chess with all options at hand and not have enough experience. What kind of gambit you would like to do. So everything's possible and by, because you have not enough experience, you say everything's possible, that creates too much of a planning hassle. And Agile, is the funny thing is, made us very transparent by just saying, okay, let's spend maybe two weeks. And then we figured out two weeks is too much. So let's do a spike, then we call it a spike. The basic idea was always to have a very short time frame, timeline where we try to bring our know-how to a specific problem, try to solve it as fast as possible. And the funny thing was actually was, as if I I confess myself that I don't know everything, or anything, sorry, that I don't know anything, then I could say, I give me a very short timeline, I could say I spend an hour. And today we have chat, CVT and perplexity and all that stuff. And then we could say, okay, let's spend an hour observation, but then we need to come up with a better idea of what we are talking about. So we can shorten the time cycle. So whenever I experienced teams or even organizations, when they start getting that planning in place, we have a knowledge problem. And a typical that is, is, or the classical mindset always says, okay, then we need to plan more. We need to make that upfront work. For instance, we need to have backlogs and we need to know all these features, even if we don't know what kind of features our client really would like to have. And the actual software problem is saying, okay, let's get out with something that we can deliver. And then we get feedback. And if we understand that our kind of the amount of time we spend is as cheap as possible. So like we use the tools that we have. We used to know how that we have. We try to create something that we can achieve with what we can do already, then we can improve on that. And then we can figure out, we don't know exactly what we might need to have to do more research or ask another consultant or bring in friends from another team to help us with that. Brian Milner (06:46) It's, sounds like the there's a, there's a real, kind of focus then from, from what I'm hearing from you, like a real focus on experimentation and, you know, that, that phrase we hear a lot failing fast, that kind of thing. So how, do you cultivate that? How do you, how do you get the organization to buy in and your team to buy into that idea of. Let's experiment, let's fail fast. And, and, we'll learn more from, from doing that than just, you know, endlessly planning. Boris Gloger (07:12) I think the URCHAR community made a huge mistake of embracing this failure culture all the time. We always tell we need to call from failure because we are all ingrained in a culture in the Western society at least, where we learned through school our parents that making failures is not acceptable. Brian Milner (07:18) Ha ha. Boris Gloger (07:32) And I came across Amy Atkinson and she did a great book to make clear we need to talk about failures and mistakes in a very different kind of way. We need to understand that there are at least three kinds of mistakes that are possible. One is the basic mistake, like a spelling error or you have a context problem in a specific program that you write or you... You break something because you don't know exactly how strong your material is. That is basic mistake. You should know that. That's trainable. The other is the kind of error that you create because the problem you try to solve has too many variables. So that's a complicated problem. You can't foresee all aspects that might happen in future. So typical an airplane is crashing. So you have covered everything you know so far. But then there's some specific problem that nobody could foresee. That's a failure. But it's not something that you can foresee. You can't prevent that. You try to prevent as best as possible. And that's even not an accepted mistake because sometimes people die and you really would like to go against it. So that's the second kind of mistakes you don't like to have. We really like to get out of the system. And then there's a third way kind of mistakes. And that is exactly what we need to have. We need to embrace that experimentation and even experimentation. mean, I started physics in school and in university and an experimental physicists. He's not running an experiment like I just throw a ball around and then I figure out what happens. An experiment is a best guess. You have a theory behind it. You believe that what you deliver or that you try to find out is the best you try to do. The Wright brothers missed their first airplane. I mean, they didn't throw their airplane in the balloon. Then it gets destroyed. They tried whatever they believed is possible. But then you need to understand as a team, as an organization, we have never done this before, so it might get broken. We might learn. For instance, we had once a project where we worked with chemists 10 years ago to splice DNA. So we wanted to understand how DNA is written down in the DNA sequence analyzer. And I needed to understand that we had 90 scientists who created these chemicals to be able to that you can use that in that synthesizer to understand how our DNA is mapped out. And we first need to understand one sprint might get results that 99 of our experience will fail. But again, management said we need to be successful. Yeah, but what is the success in science? I mean, that you know this route of action is not working, right? And that is the kind of failure that we would like to have. And I believe our Agile community need to tell that much more to our clients. It's not like, we need to express failure. No, we don't need to embrace failure. We don't want to have mistakes and we don't want to have complicated issues that might lead to the destroying of our products. need on the other hand, the culture, the experimentation to figure out something that nobody knows so far is acceptable, it's necessary. And then, edge our processes help us again by saying, okay, we can shorten the frame, we can shorten the time frame so that we can create very small, tiny experiments so that in case we are mistaken, Not a big deal. That was the basic idea. Brian Milner (11:04) That's a great point. That's really a great point because you're right. It's not failure in general, right? There are certain kinds of failures that we definitely want to avoid, but there's failure as far as I run an experiment. at that point, that's where we start to enter into this dialogue of it's not really a failure at that point. If you run an experiment and it doesn't turn out the way you expected, it's just an experiment that didn't turn out the way you expected. Boris Gloger (11:30) Basically, every feature we create in software or even in hardware, we have never done it before. So the client or our customers can't use it so far because it's not there. So now we ship it to the client and then he or she might not really use it the way that we believe it is. Is it broken? it a mistake? It was not a mistake. It was an experiment and now we need to adapt on it. And if we can create a system, that was all that was agile, I think was a bot. On very first start, if we can create a system that gives us feedback early. then that guessing can't be so much deviation or say in a different way, our investment in time and material and costs and money and is shortened as much as possible. So we have very small investments. Brian Milner (12:13) Yeah, that's awesome. I'm kind of curious too, because, you know, we, we, we've talked a little bit at the beginning about how, you know, this is part of this bias towards action as part of this entrepreneurial kind of mindset. And I'm curious in your, experience and your consultants experience that you've worked with big companies and small companies, have you noticed a difference in sort of that bias toward action? Uh, you know, that, that kind of. is represented in a different way in a big company versus a more small startup company. Boris Gloger (12:48) The funny thing is I don't believe it's a problem of large corporations or small, tiny little startups, even if we would say that tiny little startups are more in tune in making experiments. It's really a kind of what is my mindset, and the mindset is a strange word, but what is my basic habit about how to embrace new things. What is the way I perceive the world? Every entrepreneur who tries to create it or say it different way, even entrepreneurs nowadays need to create business plans. The basic ideas I can show to investors, everything is already mapped out. I have already clients. I have a proven business model. That is completely crazy because If it were a proof business model, someone else would have already done it, right? So obviously you need to come up with the idea that a kind of entrepreneur mindset is a little bit like I try to create something that is much more interesting to phrase it this way. by creating something, it's like art. You can't, can't... Plan art, I mean, it's impossible. I mean, you might have an idea and you might maybe someone who's writing texts or novels might create a huge outline. But on the other hand, within that outline, he needs to be creative again. And someone will say, I just start by getting continuous feedback. It's always the same. You need to create something to be able to observe it. that was for me, for me, that was the epiphany or the idea 25 years ago was, I don't know what your background is, but I wasn't a business analyst. Business analysts always wanted to write documents that the developer can really implement, right? And then we figured out you can't write down what you need to implement. There's no way of writing requirements in the way that someone else can build it. That's impossible. And even philosophers figure that out 100 years ago is written, Shanti said, you can't tell people what is the case. It's impossible. So, but what you can do, you can create something and you can have it in your review. And then you can start discussing about what you just created. And then you create a new result based on your observations and the next investment that you put in that. And then you create the next version of your product, your feature, your service, et cetera. Brian Milner (15:12) Hmm. Boris Gloger (15:25) And when we came back to the entrepreneur mindset and starting companies, Greaves created exactly that. He said, okay, let's use scrum to come up with as much possibilities for experimentation. And then we will see if it works. Then we can go on at that. And large corporations typically, They have on the one hand side, have too much money. And by having too much money, you would like to get an investment and they have a different problem. Typically large corporations typically needs to, they have already a specific margin with their current running products. And if you come up with a new business feature product, you might not get that as that amount of of revenue or profitability at the beginning. And therefore, can't, corporations have the problem that they have already running business and they are not seeing that they need to spend much, much more money on these opportunities. And maybe over time, that opportunity to make money and that's their problem. So this is the issue. It's not about entrepreneurial mindsets, it's about that. problem that you are not willing to spend that much money as long as you make much more money, it's the same amount of time on your current business. It happens even to myself, We are running a consulting company in Germany and Austria, and Austria is much smaller than Germany's tenth of the size. And if you spend one hour of sales in Austria, you don't make that much money in Austria than you make in Germany. this investment of one hour. Where should you focus? You will always focus on Germany, of course. means obvious. Brian Milner (17:08) Yeah. Yeah. Boris Gloger (17:10) Does it make sense? Maybe I'm running so. Brian Milner (17:14) No, that makes sense. That makes sense entirely. And so I'm kind of curious in this conversation about action and having a bias toward action then, what do you think are some of the, in your experience in working with companies, what have you seen as sort of the common obstacles or barriers, whether that be psychological or. organizational, what do you find as the most common barriers that are preventing people from having that bias toward action? Boris Gloger (17:44) the they are they are afraid of the of that of tapping into the new room endeavor. So that was always my blind spot because I'm an entrepreneur. I love to do new things. I just try things out. If I've either reading a book, and there's a cool idea, I try to what can happen. But we are not And most organizations are not built that way that they're really willing to, when most people are not good in just trying things out. And most people would really like to see how it's done. And most people are not good in... in that have not the imagination what might be possible. That's the we always know that product adoption curve, that the early adopters, the fast followers, the early minority, the late minority. And these inventors or early adopters, they are the ones who can imagine there might be a brighter future if I try that out. And the other ones are the ones who need to see that it is successful. And so whenever you try implementing Scrum or design thinking or mob programming or I don't whatever it is, you will always have people who say it's not possible because I don't have, haven't seen it before. And I sometimes I compare that with how to how kids are learning. Some kids are learning because they see how what is happening. They just mirroring what they see. And some kids are start to invent the same image in imagination. And but both that we are all of us are able to do both. It's not like I'm an imaginary guy who's inventing all the time and I don't, people, maybe there's a preference and the organizations have the same preference. But typically that's the problem that I see in organizations is based on our society and our socialization, on our business behaviors and maybe the pressure of large corporations and all that peer pressure is Brian Milner (19:34) Yeah. Yeah. Boris Gloger (19:54) The willingness to give people the room to try something out is the problem. Well, not the problem, it's the hinders us of being more innovative in organizations. Brian Milner (19:59) Yeah. Yeah. Well, that brings to mind a good question then too, because this experimentation mindset is very, very much a cultural kind of aspect of an organization, which speaks to leadership. And I'm kind of curious from your perspective, if you're a leader, what kind of things can you do as a leader to encourage, foster, of really nurture? that experimentation mindset in your organization. Boris Gloger (20:34) Let's have a very simple example. Everybody of us now maybe have played with chat, CPT, Suno, perplexity and so on. So that's the school AI technology around the corner. And what happens now in organizations is exactly what happens 30 years ago when the internet came here. You have leadership or managers who say, that's a technology, I give it to the teams, they can figure out whatever that is. And the funny thing is, if you have a technology that will change the way we behave, so it's a social technology, a kind of shift, then I need to change my behavior, I need to change the way I do I'm doing things. Yeah, everybody of us has now an iPhone or an Android or whatever it is, but but we are using our mobiles in a completely different way than 30 years ago. And to lead us and manage us, we need to train ourselves first before we can help our teams to change. So the problem is that Again, a lot of Agilist talks about we need, first we need to change the culture of organizations to be able to do Agile and so on and so on. That's complete nonsense. But what we really need to is we need to have managers, team leads, it with team leads, to help them to do the things themselves because Agile, even in the beginning, now it's technology change, now it's AI, is something that changes the way we do our stuff. It's kind of habit. And we need to help them to seize themselves. Maybe they can only seize themselves by doing that stuff. And that goes back to my belief that leadership needs to know much more about the content of their teams and the way these teams can perform their tasks and the technology that is around to be able to thrive in organizations. Brian Milner (22:40) Yeah. Yeah. I love this discussion and I love that you brought up, you know, AI and how that's affecting things here as well. how do you think that's having a, do you think that's making it easier, harder? How do you think AI is, is kind of influencing this bias toward action mentality? Boris Gloger (22:59) Yeah, it depends on if you are able to play. mean, because the funny thing is, it's a new kind of technology. really knows what all these tools can do by themselves. And it's new again. It's not like I have done AI for the next last 10 years and I know exactly what's possible. So we need to play. So you need to log in to adjust it. Yesterday, I tried something on Zulu. I created the company song in 10 seconds. I went to ChatGVT, I said I need a song, I need lyrics for a company song. These are the three words I would like to have, future, Beurus Kluger, and it needs to be that kind of mood. ChatGVT created the song for my lyrics, then they put the lyrics into the... And they created a prompt with ChatGVT and then put that prompt in my lyrics into Sono and Sono created that song within 10 seconds. I mean, it's not get the Grammy. Okay. It's not the Grammy. But it was, I mean, it's, it's, it's okay. Yeah. It's a nice party song. And now, and just playing around. And that is what I would like to see in organizations, that we start to play around with these kind of technologies and involve everybody. But most people, the very discussions that I had in the last couple of weeks or months was about these tools shall do the job exactly the same way as it is done today. So it's like... I create that kind of report. Now I give that to Chet Chibati and Chet Chibati shall create that same report again. That is nonsense. It's like doing photography in the old days, black and white. And now I want to have photography exactly done the same way with my digital camera. And what happened was we used the digital cameras changed completely the way we create photography and art. changed completely, right? And that is the same thing we need to do with ChatGV team. And we need to understand that we don't know exactly how to use it. And then we can enlarge and optimize on one hand the way we are working, for instance, creating 20 different versions for different social media over text or something like that, or 20 new pictures. But if I would like to express myself, so, and... and talk about my own behavior or my own team dynamic and what is the innovation in ourselves, then we need to do ourselves. And we can use, that is the other observation that we made. The funny thing that goes back to the knowledge issue, the funny thing is that teams typically say, I don't know if it's in the US, but at least in my experience, that we still have the problem within teams. that people believe this is my know-how and that is your know-how and I'm a specialist in X or Y set. So they can't talk to each other. But if you use maybe chat GPT and all these tools now, they can bridge these know-how gaps using these tools. And suddenly they can talk to each other much faster. So they get more productive. It's crazy. It's not like I'm now a fool with a tool. I can be a fool and the tool might help me to overcome my knowledge gaps. Brian Milner (26:20) Now this is awesome. I know that your book that's coming out, Strategy is Practice, talks about a lot of these things. Tell us a little bit about this book and kind of what the focus is. Boris Gloger (26:30) the basic idea when I started doing working on the on strategies, we be in the the actual community, we talk about strategy as what is a new idea of being OKR. So OKR equals strategy, and that is not true. And I came up with this basic idea, what is the basic problem of of strategic thinking and we are back to the in most organizations, we still believe strategy is the planning part and then we have an implementation part. And years ago, I came across a very basic, completely different idea that said every action is strategy. Very simple example. You have the strategy in a company that you have a high price policy. Everything you do is high price. But then you are maybe in a situation where you really need money, effort, revenue issues, liquidation, liquidation problems. Then you might reduce your price. And that moment, your strategy is gone. just your obviously and you have now a new strategy. So your actions and your strategies always in line. So it's not the tactic for the strategy, but tactic is strategy. And now we are back to Azure. So now we can say, okay, we need kind of a long-term idea. And now we can use for creating the vision. For instance, you list the V2MOM framework for creating your vision. But now I need to have a possibility to communicate my strategic ideas. And in the Azure community, we know how to do this. We have plannings and we have dailies and we have reviews and retrospectives. So now I can use all these tools. I can use from the bookshelf of Azure tools. I can use maybe OKRs to create a continuous cycle of innovation or communication so that I get that everybody knows now what is the right strategy. And I can feed back with the reviews to management. that the strategy approach might not work that way that they believed it's possible experimentation. And then and I added two more ideas from future insight or strategic foresight, some other people call it. So the basic idea is, how can I still think about the future in an not in the way of that I have a crystal ball. But I could say, how can I influence the future, but I can only influence the future if I have an idea what might be in future. It's like a scenario. Now you can create actions, power these kind of scenarios that you like, or what you need to prevent a specific scenario if you don't like that. And we need a third tool, that was borrowed from ABCD risk planning, was the basic idea, how can I get my very clear a very simple tool to get the tactics or the real environmental changes like suddenly my estimates might not be correct anymore or my suggestions or beliefs about the future might not get true in the future. So I need kind of a system to feed back reality in my strategy. it's a little bit like reviewing all the time the environment. And if you put all that together, then you get a very nice frame how to use strategy on a daily practice. It's not like I do strategy and then have a five-year plan. No, you have to do continuously strategy. And I hope that this will help leaders to do strategy. I mean, because most leaders don't do strategy. They do tactic kind of work. and they don't spend They don't spend enough time in the trenches. to enrich their strategies and their thinking and their vision. because they detach strategy and implementation all the time. That's the basic idea. Brian Milner (30:30) That's awesome. That sounds fascinating. And I can't wait to read that. That sounds like it's going to be a really good book. So we'll make sure that we have links in our show notes to that if anyone wants to find out more information about that or learn more from Boris on this topic. Boris, can't thank you enough for making time for coming on. This has been a fascinating discussion. Thank you for coming on the show. Boris Gloger (30:40) Yeah. Yeah, thank you very much for having me on your show and appreciate that your time and your effort here. Make a deal for the, it's very supporting for the agile community. Thank you for that. Brian Milner (30:57) Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, thank you.

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• #148: What It Really Takes to Lead Change That Sticks with Sherri Robbins

  Can you lead meaningful change without burning people out—or yourself? Sherri Robbins thinks so, and she’s sharing how she’s done it in high-stakes, high-complexity environments (with her sanity intact). Overview In this episode, Sherri Robbins joins Scott Dunn to talk about what it actually takes to lead large-scale change across teams, departments, and vendors without losing sight of your values—or your people. From agile leadership lessons and real-world mistakes to personality-aware management and learning how (and when) to let teams fail forward, this conversation goes far beyond frameworks. If you’ve ever tried to implement something new and wondered why it didn’t stick, this one’s for you. References and resources mentioned in the show: Sherri Robbins Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard by Chip Heath & Dan Heath Start With Why by Simon Sinek Five Lessons For Agile Leaders Join the Agile Mentors Community Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum. Sherri Robbins is a 20+ year veteran in the medical device industry, blending strategic execution with deep regulatory and quality systems expertise to lead enterprise-wide transformations. She’s a thought leader in Agile implementation, known for aligning cross-functional teams, building psychological safety, and driving change that actually sticks.

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• #147: The Power of Quiet Influence with Casey Sinnema

  How do you lead change when you’re not the boss? Casey Sinnema shares what it takes to build trust, influence outcomes, and make Monday feel a little less dreadful. Overview What happens when you give a self-proclaimed utility player the freedom to poke holes in broken systems and lead cross-functional change without official authority? In this episode, Scott chats with Casey Sinema about navigating ambiguity, building trust without a title, and leading impactful change through curiosity, clarity, and a deep understanding of what people actually need. References and resources mentioned in the show: Casey Sinnema Wolf Pack by Abby Wombach The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins Micromanagement Log Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Join the Agile Mentors Community Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at [email protected] This episode’s presenters are: Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum. Casey Sinnema is a self-described utility player who’s built a career by asking great questions, poking holes in broken systems, and leading meaningful change across teams—without ever needing the official title to do it. With a background in accounting and a talent for cross-functional problem solving, she brings curiosity, empathy, and real-world savvy to every challenge she tackles. Auto-generated Transcript: Scott Dunn (00:01) Well, welcome everyone to another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I am your takeover, not your normal host, of Brian Miller, who's done a smash up job over a hundred plus episodes if you haven't checked those out. But part of the podcast takeover was not only a fresh voice, but also perspective and a lot of what I typically focus on for the people who know me. On leadership and culture and leading change. And I thought of no one better that I'd rather talk to about some of this. Casey Sinnema and I'll give you a little bit of introduction about who she is, what she does. Maybe also I think it'd be fascinating Casey on how you yourself in the role that you have. I think it's kind of a cool role, at least on paper. You can flesh that out a little bit more but I'll hand off to you. Tell us a little about yourself. Casey (00:46) Yeah, hey, thanks for having me. Yeah, so I currently am most often referred to as a utility player. And I'm still trying to figure out my elevator speech for how I talk about what I do because my role, my title is manager, which doesn't say much, right? And I actually don't do a function, but the easiest way to talk about it is I'm a project manager of sorts. I'm involved in a wide variety of projects from a varying level of involvement, from leading the project to leading the change to being a key stakeholder to just being the voice to leaders or executives or that type of thing. So yeah, I am a little bit of everything. And I got here on accident. I have... Scott Dunn (01:32) I was... Casey (01:34) You know, way back in the day when I was, you know, doing the like, what am I going to do for the rest of my life? I'm like, I just want a marketable skill. So I have a business degree and I went into accounting and I quickly became the troubleshooter. So I would go into a company, troubleshoot, fix the process, fix something broken, and then find myself in another company doing the same thing. And, so throughout my career, I've just sort of built this unique set of skills that allow me to poke holes in processes. and help companies fix them and then kind of find the next thing. So that's just kind of how I wound up here. I've been at my current company for almost a decade, which is going to be a record for me. And, but I'm still doing the same thing. I'm moving around the company and finding new places to, you know, rock the boat a little bit. Scott Dunn (02:20) Cool. Very cool. Yeah. It does sound like you have a number of things on your place to where that makes kind of expand on that a little bit and where you comfortably share those stories as we go through some of this because there's a lot, there's a lot more underneath based on what Casey shared before. And I love it that you found yourself like a happy accident and I guess have enough challenges and learning and growth there as long as they move you around that you're, you know, you need to be working on that are meaningful. things to be working on. Casey (02:51) Yeah, absolutely. That's the biggest thing, right? Is to like find work that you find valuable and that has an impact on the people around you, which is, know, squarely aligned with my values. Scott Dunn (03:01) Well, you touched on one thing that I know a number of other people could relate to and I could too as well as the kind of troubleshoots process can just easily see that things aren't working at a larger view. Some of that. maybe add on a little bit. What is it like about your role? For those who are kind of thinking they're in quasi space, they can hear you talk about that role and like, hey, that sounds like me too. What are the points of that different projects, different things you're involved with that that's what really lights you up? Casey (03:27) Yeah, I, it's so interesting because a lot of us find that the things that we're good at are the things that, you know, give us energy and that motivate us, right? I happen to be uniquely skilled at poking holes in things, including in my own life. So it works in my personal life as well. I could just sort of see things from different perspectives and find the gaps. And so it just sort of on accident. I think what's interesting is Scott Dunn (03:43) You Hmm. Casey (03:53) throughout my career and throughout my life, the biggest challenge has been to hone that skill for good, right? To lead with kindness and to manage my expectations along with the expectations of the world around me and troubleshoot the things or poke holes in things that need holes poked in instead of like everything. You know what mean? Scott Dunn (04:15) I love that. Two things that I want to, I guess, add on a little bit more there. One, you mentioned something and the other thing is I think you might just put out there like, same thing from different perspectives. I imagine for the people, we've all been around folks who just they only think their way. And you're just kind of reflecting on that. But Keith, it sounds like you can go into a meeting and you can hear three different state views and you can genuinely understand from their perspective why that's important to them or why that's a problem to them, right? If I'm hearing you. Casey (04:42) Yeah, absolutely. That's really key in all of the different types of projects that I've played a part in, right? Like hearing things from different people's perspectives and really understanding what they're looking to get, what they need and what's in it for them and being able to connect those things across stakeholders. Scott Dunn (04:59) Yeah, that's powerful. Yeah, but looking for commonality, alignment, et cetera. I do think there's a specialness, and we've talked about it a bit, like in the facilitation class, that looking for those folks having common and generating alignment is a unique gift that we just don't see a lot in corporate people kind of lobby for what they want. And actually, it's, it would be an afterthought to think about other people's perspectives and yet who draws different areas of the company together who are to get some new about the door or whatever like that. So you're kind of touching on that, which I think is really powerful. Is there anything that you see as like a go-to mindset that you bring in those situations or go to like tools that you're kind of using, whether that's things you're doing in writing down or in mural or even just how where your head is at when you walk into some of those meetings where you feel they have different perspectives and on the same page, you're supposed to walk out of that session on the same page. Casey (05:51) Yeah, the first one is to sort of leave my ego at the door, right? What I think is the right thing can't come in the door with me, right? Like I, of course I'm influencing, right? Where I feel like it matters. But it's not, I'm probably not the decision maker and the people that are not on the same page, when they need to get aligned, they need to be able to get there on their own. So what I think is the right way, I got to leave it at the door. So that's my number one thing. Scott Dunn (05:57) heheheheh. Casey (06:18) And then the next thing I do is just really stay curious, ask lots of questions, actively listen, model that active listening behavior so that everybody else is also actively listening. That's a big thing. And really just sort of helping people find a common language, I think, is really important. So I do a lot of restating what I'm hearing so that other people can maybe hear it from a different set of words and connect it. Scott Dunn (06:29) Hahaha Casey (06:42) more readily to the way that they're thinking about the topic. Scott Dunn (06:45) Yeah, you say these as if they're like, I mean those are short little pithy statements, but boy, powerful. I think it reflects an attitude beginning with what he said as the ego is like, we might know a whole lot, we gotta leave that at the door. Just at work, awesome. Here and you say something, I'm making notes like this would be good in life too, right? In personal life and relationships, stay curious, active. Don't assume that the way you see it is reality, right? So, I think that's super. The other thing you mentioned though was about Go ahead. Casey (07:17) I will say I'm better at it at my job than in my personal life because, Scott Dunn (07:23) Of course, I think, yeah, for everyone listening, they're like, me too. Why can't I do this? I can tell some stories. So the other one, though, you should just poke holes as if like, it's this little thing we're doing. But there might be something inside. I think I might be able to relate that is driving perhaps towards this isn't running as well as it could, or this isn't running. I think we know that, or this could be better. Something inside you that that you feel is churning, that you're seeing holes no matter what that is, if it's a small process, large process, a team, multiple teams. Tell me a little bit more about what does that mean to you when you say poke holes in things? What's running through your mind? Casey (08:01) Yeah, it's complex, right? Because sometimes it's really easy. This is broken. you know, right? Or there's a bottleneck, something that's really like you can, it's data driven, you can see in the data where something is not working well, that those are the easy ones, right? And you can just start asking sort of the five whys or the finding the root cause of what's happening there. Scott Dunn (08:06) Those are the easy ones, yes. Casey (08:26) But in the case where there's friction or there appears to be barriers or there's just this. any kind of challenge or even when there's not a challenge, quite frankly, I have this unique ability to like listen across people and across like data and technology. That's a weird thing to say is listen across technology, but I sort of just find where things are misconnected or disconnected and start to ask questions there. And so I can find something that maybe isn't working as well as it should without anybody else noticing which. Scott Dunn (08:35) Yeah. Casey (08:59) I've learned I need to be careful with. Scott Dunn (09:01) That's great. So at least the next question was any hard lessons, anything so you could do a redo on that one that you could pass on so someone else doesn't have to learn the hard way from Casey's experience. Casey (09:11) Ha yeah. Everything I learned, I learned the hard way. So if you feel like that's what you're doing, you're not alone. Yeah, the thing that I have learned probably the most often, and I will learn it several more times in my career, I'm sure, is when I think I have found something, go make sure it's true before you start to really socialize it. So like, I'm going to go ask the question of the expert. Scott Dunn (09:20) Ha Whoa. Casey (09:42) before I bring it up because maybe I'm not seeing it from all of the right angles or maybe I don't understand exactly what it's doing or quite frankly maybe I'm missing some context. And so really talking and building relationships with people who are experts on the topic or in the field is really kind of where I start. Scott Dunn (10:00) was great, great period. the number of times we miss out on relationships, especially in that one, really key. Casey (10:00) And. Yeah. Scott Dunn (10:08) I think I'd add to that though. sometimes I'll phrase it as rather wait to be sure than lose capital because if I go out saying things that aren't true. So sometimes we'll jump in on the outing side and they'll be like, why haven't you gotten yet? And I'll be clear, like, I'd rather wait and be sure than hurry and be wrong. And then we got to that mess before we get back to the work we're supposed to be doing. And sometimes it's a while to pick that up, depending on who got affected by We'll put out there sometimes innocuously, we thought, well, here's the numbers results. And someone's like, that's actually not correct. But now everyone knows we have now we have a PR problem, something like that. So I'm not alone in that. I've been there. That's a tough one. But also on the coin, though, what would you point to as wins if you look back like that's talking about? That's why this is important. That's what you feel good about. Casey (10:54) Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think from a win perspective, the, a really good example, I'm going to go way back in the day. I had a, a chance to work, in a motorcycle dealership and we had huge, was, you know, weird economic times, right? And so there's weird financial things happening in this, you know, motorcycle dealership company and, and, everybody's just trying to stay afloat and You find the like the friction between either the mechanic shop and the, the sales shop. And when you find those and you can solve those problems and make the experience smooth for the, for the client, right. For the customer and make that like walk in the door experience consistent and smooth. This in this case was just people, right? It wasn't even technology. wasn't really a process. It was just people. And the biggest wins are when like. the people start to notice. And then what happens is everybody's life gets better and everybody has more fun doing whatever it is that they're doing. And it just changes the vibe. Scott Dunn (12:08) I love that. I love that. I do believe very much like the work that we could be doing here. People enjoy their work more people enjoy coming to work. doesn't have to be a place that people don't want to be in or watching the class. I love you touching on that's great. Casey (12:21) Yeah, there's a balance there, right? Like, because they call it work for a reason. It's a job. We don't love everything that we do all of the time. But, you know, are we doing the things that we can do to make life good for ourselves and for others? Scott Dunn (12:33) Yes, so nice segue because what I feel like I've learned later in my career, we'll just phrase it that way, that the importance of self-care, taking care of ourselves so that we have the energy and attitude to keep doing work that we're doing, especially if you're a leading changer, in some ways you're a change artist trying to bring that about, change agent, it can be taxing. So are there things along the way that are either You just know a good way that you take care of yourself could be learning, could be space, could be the road you carry, or that you actually do to protect yourself and that work-life balance emotionally, mentally. you aren't kind of aware of, what does it look like to do good self-care and help make sure you're taking care of yourself to deliver good value in the workplace. Share what that means to you and maybe some of the things that you do. Casey (13:21) Yeah, it's so important, right? Like I am also not in the early stages of my career and still learning how to take care of myself and protect myself and, you know, build good boundaries, right? I, yes, yes. So I have good personal routines, right? Like I do yoga, I meditate. I'm a big fan of podcasts and. Scott Dunn (13:31) Hahaha Right. Boundaries is a good word, yes. Casey (13:46) I'm a learner, so I'm always learning. Maybe there's a boundary there too, like how much can you self-improve before it becomes, I don't know, toxic? But when it comes to boundaries, really it's, I start with the relationships, right? Like at work, making sure that my expectations are clear and that of my leadership chain is clear no matter what job I'm in. Scott Dunn (13:47) Hmm. you Casey (14:11) and setting boundaries that are clearly expressed so that I can protect myself and my personal life and that balance, and I can deliver the way that I'm expected to deliver. And that just makes life easier for me. Scott Dunn (14:23) Super, super, super, super. I'm thinking there's a lot of people. I it's a ways back. We cover accommodative and assertive, you know, as far as power styles and the cowl. And what's been fascinating for all these years, most people are all on the accommodative side. When I hear you say something like, hey, the expectations clear or use the word bad, that sounds like someone who has a balance of, no, I'm there for people, but I don't overextend myself to where I no good. Casey (14:23) Thank Scott Dunn (14:50) I burned something like that. So I think that's really great for everyone to hear. It hurt to define the relationship with make sure your expectations are clear for me. And then sometimes, you know, there's someone else that could take that on or might play this role, etc. But sometimes we're so helpful that we overload ourselves and actually don't do good job. We do, you know, average job on a lot of things instead of a job on a few and they could have found maybe someone else. think that's awesome. You said podcasts, there other ways, is that your way of learning? there other things that you, as far as what, for the learning side? Casey (15:26) Yeah, so books are my go-to. I'm somebody who does a lot of highlighting and note taking and flagging in books, because I'm always going back to them. And I love to learn things that are sort of outside of my lane, if you will. It's kind of how I got involved in Agile. I have a business degree in finance, and Agile doesn't really play into that until it does, right? And so I started to like, I'm curious about that, or I'm curious about Six Sigma or those types of things. And so I just sort of go find them and take the nuggets that apply directly to me and put the other ones on the shelf for like when it does apply to me, if you know what I mean. Um, so I just, I'm a learner, so I'm always looking to, to, to learn new things. I'll be frank, podcasts for me, I'm not learning things. I'm entertaining myself. Scott Dunn (16:20) I try, I try to really be focused to get, I like listening, but yeah, the actually applying is not as much. I'm definitely same about I'm a higher. Someone said the difference in studying is the pin. So I'm always like, unless I'm marking it up, am I really digging into this book or, or Kendall? So I'm to hear I'm not alone on that one. So I want to shift a little bit because some of what we've done is leading change. think the conversation we had were around. Casey (16:38) Absolutely. Scott Dunn (16:45) So moving around from just you to the broader culture, how would you describe what a great culture like or feels like? Maybe some of us haven't even been in a great company so they don't know. They can't picture, imagine what that could be like. And you've been to a number of places with different roles. What's good culture, great culture look like in your opinion? Casey (17:06) Yeah, I think that it's gotta be a cliche out there. I'm pretty sure I've seen it on a meme, but good culture is defined by how you feel on Sunday night, right? Like if you're not dreading going into work on Monday, right? Like you probably are in a culture that's a good fit for you because I think culture doesn't have a one size fits all perspective. Like big companies, small companies, different types of work, different groups of people. sort of lend themselves to different kinds of culture. I've been in companies where the culture is great for me and everybody else is miserable. And companies where the culture is great for everybody else and I'm just not a good fit. So I think that in general, good culture is... I talk about it in this like self-awareness perspective. If the culture itself is a little bit self-aware, then it is what they say it is. So if you say your culture is one thing and everybody agrees, including the culture, including the behaviors of what's expected in the environment, if all of those things are aligned, the culture is probably good, even if there are people who aren't good fits for it. I don't know if that answers your question. That's my perspective. Scott Dunn (18:03) Hehehehe That's great. Oh, it's it's better. That one's a good wrap up now. Like that really to me, it's a bit of a mic drop because it's so good. It's simple. But you're right. How you feel on Sunday night? A ton about what's happening with you and the job you have and what's happening around you. Absolutely. And that different like sometimes it is just a fit because a lot of people can be excited about it, but you're bothered by it or might rub you wrong. And I know we've gone through the values in the class as well. I've been at companies where we're absolutely about get stuff done and that's fine. But it's kind of a burnout. I love the very collaborative, but sometimes I'm like, man, I want to get stuff done. I'm getting frustrated that we're like, we really connect and talk a lot. I don't see stuff happening. So you're right. Obviously, you know, some people are sensitive to that. And that last piece about like the behavior. it should be considered. And I do sometimes see like leadership will say something or there'll be things on the walls. But you look around like, yeah, I don't actually think anyone's actually behaving that way. It's like an aspirational vibe about what they want to be, but they're not really doing it. So I think all those lenses are giving are right. And they're simple. Someone can look around and just see what you're saying. And then you make their own calculations of that. Some of the good. Some of that's a bit too. Casey (19:26) Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Scott Dunn (19:32) In the sense like either either change it for the better or You know what I mean? Like I don't want to be the person that's been there seven like this place is terrible What are you doing? What why have you been here 17 years hating it? I don't Casey (19:32) you Yeah, it's really important that we're honest with ourselves as much as our companies are honest with us, right? Like, what do I need from my job? What do I need from my career? And am I at a place that can support that? Scott Dunn (19:45) Good. Yes. Yeah, and and i'll serious in this case. I think there is some point where people I hear them And i'll just straight up. I don't think leadership has any intention to changing in the way you're describing Right. So in the end like so what would you like to do? And it's not even like it's a bad thing really. It's just like that's like It's a bit when you said that part some people are so passionate they forget like Yeah, and you're wrong like you could be wanting this coming to change in a way. It's not who they are or what they're about or you're Found by 80 people who are actually quite good with the way things The fact that you're so passionate doesn't mean you're right. It might just mean this is not a good fit. So don't stay here trying to change everything, which probably wouldn't work anyways if that's, you know, they're comfortable with what are. It's almost like in self-preservation, just say, I just need to exercise my agency and there's not a good guy. What's that song? There Ain't No Good Guy, There Ain't No Bad Guy. It's me and you and we just disagree. You move on to another and they'll be happier somewhere else is what I would think. So I think that's a good perspective. People can get past space about, you know, and agile and all that and then rail against something that's an immovable in some organizations. Casey (21:08) Yeah, being aware of the things that you can control, the things that you can't control, is really the crux of your own sanity, if you will. Scott Dunn (21:16) Yeah, it's a good way of saying it, Yeah, and you can control a lot of that. You can influence it. can influence it. Let me follow up on that because clearly, in my opinion, seems like you've that about bringing about change when you don't necessarily have authority. You can't dictate to some of these folks. What do you think is a key aspect of being successful around influence or people who... I get asked this all the time, how do we influence, how do we manage up, et cetera. What would you prefer as your thoughts on that about influencing others? Casey (21:50) Yeah, I actually listened to a podcast recently about leading without influence. one of the key comments, I guess I am also learning through podcasts, I guess. But one of the comments in the podcast was there are people who lead with a hammer, people who lead with influence. And I kind of love that because I haven't been a people leader in more than a decade. Scott Dunn (21:55) There you go. So they are some good. Casey (22:13) which means I don't have any authority, right? I lead all of my influence. All of my leadership is through influence. And the way that I approach that is I start with. It's a, it's a gooey word, but empathy, understanding the people that I'm talking to and working with and understanding what they need and what their challenges are, and then meeting them where they are. Right. The easiest way to gain influence with. Most people, is to build trust and to build trust, need to build relationships. And so I would say 90 % of my influence comes first from relationships. And probably the other 10 % comes from my ability to stand up and say, I was wrong when I did something wrong or when my perspective was incorrect and when I behaved outside my values, like just owning it up when I'm like, Scott Dunn (22:59) Wow. Casey (23:04) Yeah, I was having a bad day. I apologize. There's a lot of trust that comes from that kind of vulnerability. Scott Dunn (23:11) Yeah, which is not easy to do not easy to do But I've been in meetings where I like I know it like I don't play this year But I like things so in some ways people look at influence about how we phrase things or how we present but you're just saying like look happy build a real relationship Have some humility if you're willing to say we're wrong. So people know you'll also that when you're wrong or made of your core element of strength or something like that. think that's a real nice, everyone, if you think about that, that's not out of any of us to say, you know what, I'm going to try to be more honest and authentic and have some empathy and try to listen. Casey (23:45) Absolutely. It also helps to be able to connect the dots across different people and what they need and the strategy of whatever project you're working on so that you can connect the change to something that is it like what's in it for me, right? So what's in it for the people that you're talking to and being able to connect those things. So it's not just relationships and empathy, right? That's the soft stuff. It's that ability to really critically think about what it is you're driving change for. Scott Dunn (24:08) Mm-hmm. Casey (24:12) and connecting it to how each of these different stakeholders can benefit. Scott Dunn (24:18) Yeah, the part about connecting the dots and this is one thing if I'm ever in a meeting and I feel like I'm not getting it I actually will pause into my head. I'm thinking What is this person's concerns? And if I can't if I can't clear that I'd probably need to ask more questions but for any of us in those meetings just kind of go around through those stakeholders the people sitting around the desk or on the zoom and quick like in a sentence or two what what would be important to them? What are they? What's the win or what's the pain? But if you don't feel like you can articulate, then the good thing is you have to see that asking questions around that is never a problem because they're actually share because you're basically asking them about yourself. Tell me what's important to you. And they would like to share that. And it doesn't hurt to double check that. So I love what you're saying about connected dots. It won't be necessary that they're saying what you're listening and watching. I also watch what they react to. So something might jump out that would be outside of their say their role. but it's about people and there's an aspect that they really do care about how their people feel, not just the, this process is important in terms of our strategy and the technology we're using, but it might come out like, well, all their people would be really excited to put their hands on that new technology too. But they're not gonna say that because that sounds like that's a weak reason to be for a project, but you know it's important to them because they lead those people or that person. So I like what you're saying, connect the dots, think about those perspectives, because the empathy is gonna help them to connect in the dots, right? more is emotional than the logic of that stuff. So think that's great. Really, really great. On this, I believe you're remote, correct? Partially? Okay. ⁓ fully. Okay. Let's talk about that small. It hasn't come up in the last five years, but let's talk remote. So from your experience, it's always a big topic to me. I do care about this. I think we deal with a lot, every company, because some people at least that are remote, or certainly partial remote, Casey (25:45) I am. Fully. Scott Dunn (26:05) What's your thoughts on what to be worried about and what to make that successful? you're seeing more and more almost like these two sides of the aisle, maybe some aspect of demanding people come back. And yet you have a whole generation who can't buy a house. So I'm figuring out where's the balance of remote work. So yeah, your thoughts on remote work, how to make it successful scene. Casey (26:27) Yeah, I mean, I have two different ways I could approach this, right? I have the personal thing that what works for me part, right? But as somebody who is often having these conversations with people who are in various buckets of people who are, know, partially remote, fully remote, fully in the office, that kind of a thing, I find that what I think is less relevant every single day. I for sure feel I have a lot of privilege. Scott Dunn (26:33) Mm-hmm. Casey (26:50) being fully remote. Like that's really cool because it's good for me. I'm at a spot in my career where it makes sense. I'm good at building relationships in lots of different kinds of ways, including through, you know, zoom meetings and that type of thing. But I don't think that there's a right answer. I think that the each company and each team and each group of people need to find what works best for them. and make that happen. I see real benefit to being together, especially when you're early in your career or when you're doing something that you need a whiteboard. I mean, I'm pretty good at Mural. I'm pretty good at using the whiteboard in the Zoom meeting, but there's no replacement for standing at a whiteboard with a bunch of stickies and flowing out process. So I just don't... Scott Dunn (27:33) That's so true. You're so right. Casey (27:40) I don't know that there's a right answer. And I think that different size companies have different complexity of making that decision. And it sort of goes back to that comment we were making before. Like, if it isn't a good fit for you, find something that is. You know, I don't know. That's my thought. That's my thought. Scott Dunn (28:00) Yeah, true. Makes sense. For the folks that are managing or leading these remote work, are things that they do to make that go better in their context. Casey (28:12) Absolutely. are ways to, especially if you have hybrid, it even gets more complex, right? All virtual is the easiest way of virtual, right? Because then everybody's always virtual and you're always on Zoom and you're always on Slack and whatever. That's for sure the easiest way to manage teams that are virtual. When you have that hybrid space, you've got that opportunity to be in a conference room or in a huddle group or in the cafeteria. and on Zoom meetings, and it gets kind of funky, right? Because sometimes you can't hear, or you have those water cooler conversations. The key really is to have what I found is a good working agreement, right? Like, what types of communication are we going to have? How are we going to do that? What happens when we had a really great conversation in the break room? How do we communicate that to the rest of the team who wasn't there? And really just sort of build team trust through a good quality executed working agreement. And sometimes that takes a little bit more effort from the leader or even from every individual, right? But that's part of that culture, right? Scott Dunn (29:16) Right. I think the folks you make me think that's personally in a meeting and it's good that I try to get the groups together in these different locations as they're talking. I can't tell. I talking. I don't know these. I don't know them all that well. So I can't I can't tell by voice yet. If these are different groups are working with each other. The thing is, look, that person's kind of off camera or either they're on camera. They're so far back. Is that is their mouth moving? Is there a delay? I can't tell. So that sets the connection. I'm surprised for me as a more of a relator, how much it becomes a problem like nothing beats in person. So at least get that regularly. get in person. There was another client that saying that very same thing. Like they love it when we all get back together. And so they kind of have their cadence of pulling the whole group better. Could be like you're off site, could be all hands could be, but I think those opportunities to keep connection. I do like remote. I do think you have a good point about depending on the maturity of the career. Some people just know like I know I got to take care of these biopsy that they've noticed other XYZ. So they do too. So if they're new in their career, they may not even catch that I should be probably working. what is this at home on the zoom and in their PJs or something like that. I think it's a good point. Look at those and also the work. The fact that you would take that to the team and say, what do you all think is very empowering. You have an open conversation around what they all think and definitely there's a assumptions that people are making about what it should be, et cetera, but they those explicit and they kind of carry that around with them a little. Right. So that's a yeah, really nice nugget on that. That's everyone for sure. So last thing I'm to add a little bit on the back on leading change. So in this case, it could be remote, could be these other projects that we'll try to adapt. I think you'd say this earlier about there's no company that's not going through this crazy time of change right now. When it comes to change, have you seen something that's helpful, especially if it's a more significant change, you gave some good fundamentals around influence and trust and relationship, empathy, et cetera. Are there other aspects on how that change is rolled out or a process change or the groups that are leading the change that you've seen be like more systemically just successful aside that people might change, but the way we handle change is done this way. That you think there's a tip or two out there that would help out. They're trying to kick off, you know, a new way of working. We're trying to refresh remote policies or how they work, Because a lot of people in the middle of change. Have you seen overarching themes about how this lead that you found have been more successful? Casey (31:57) Yeah, think, gosh, it's the hardest thing, right? Like figuring out a way to roll out change across teams is the most challenging thing that I've ever done. And I've been doing it for a long time. And I'm always learning new ways and new ways not to do things and all that jazz, right? I have this little nugget that I got from a mentor. Scott Dunn (32:11) Hahaha, yeah. Casey (32:24) 20 years ago almost, and he's a motorcycle rider. And when you ride a motorcycle, the thing that you do to go on a corner is to turn your head, right? Turn your head to get to where you're going. And the non-motorcycle sort of connection to that is the what's my plan. And so really understanding what the plan is so that you can very clearly articulate what it is you're doing at each phase of the change. If you're prepping people for change, what's the plan? If you're starting to design a project, what's the plan? And just get really clear with where you're going, what the expectations are, what each individual person's role is, and be explicit about it because we're all dealing with a lot of things coming at us all the time. And if you're leading with kindness and you're saying, okay, your part of this is to simply accept the change. That's not condescending, that's empowering. That tells that person that like, this decision has been made, I gotta get myself there, and this person's here to help me get there. And so just being really clear about it, that's the biggest thing for me that I've seen that is successful. It's hard to do though, because that's a lot of people and a lot of Scott Dunn (33:36) Yeah. Well, yes, that's why it makes it so surprising. Number of times a company has to bring in outside help to get the change because it's not a capability or muscle they really have about how to change ourselves. Right. We execute against what we build or do here really well for help. But but that idea of getting outside the box and thinking different how we can improve, like you said, poke holes and so that's why I like it that there's someone When a company sees someone with your skill set and the way that you're wired and leverages it to say like, we kind of informally have this person like really helping things about because it's commonly not a muscle that they really have. Sometimes they have the awareness they don't, but sometimes they don't the long, really large change initiatives that take a long time and either never really get off the ground or never really where they should have gone or before they kind of just either die on the vine or we just call it, you know, just call it good. They don't draw in. It gets a group above everyone trying to lay change on top of folks instead of incorporate everyone into change and then go through it together. Learning together with someone like you that can connect the dots, connect with people, can bring that about. And think in a way it's really powerful and effective. Yeah, I was going to tease you. don't know if you have anything on that. But you mentioned books, you mentioned podcasts. Do have any favorites that you just would throw out? Classic go to book, current read, current podcast. Casey (35:01) My favorite all time book is a book called Wolf Pack by Abby Wambach. She's a soccer player, she's fantastic, and it's a book about leadership. It's like 70 pages long. It has a set of like four rules. And yeah, it's written from a like, you know, girl power, woman empowerment, leadership empowerment kind of thing, but it's universally adaptable to life, to it doesn't matter what your gender might be. what your job might be, Wolfpack. I can't recommend it enough. And then most recently, I read the let them theory and it's life changing. It's not a new topic, right? It's not a new concept. Of course you should control the things that you should stress about the things that you can control and let the things you can't control go, right? There's lots of different places that that comes up, but Mel Robbins just did a great job, like putting it into stories that you could like directly apply it to your life, or at least for me anyway. And I find myself quoting that book to myself pretty regularly. Yeah. Scott Dunn (36:03) That's a good sign. That's a really good sign. I find myself too. That's I literally will go through something. I start to realize like you've mentioned this book or this thing like three times now in the last few weeks. Like, OK, that's obviously significant. You didn't miss a time. you make another really good point. I really say like at the meta level in some ways, when it impacts you personally and you connect to it personally, it's going to be helpful and relevant in the work you do because you're going to be sharing the expression of who you are. And I say that because some people will go like, here's this top leadership book this year. I'm to read this well-known. And sometimes I'll struggle to just like really pick the book. Even if it is good content, I don't connect to it. I'm not sharing with others. It's not part. It doesn't become a home and gets spread. So I love what you're saying. Casey (36:48) completely agree with that. read, I spent a lot of time last year reading a book called Mind Your Mindset. I don't know if you've read that one. But in theory, it's great. But it's so business focused that like I didn't personally relate to it. And so I had to go find some other book that was less business structured to, to like, bolster that topic. All the words were the same. It's just the storyline really, really changes it for me. So telling stories, right, is the most important thing of how we connect. to the world. Scott Dunn (37:20) Yes, yes, yes. And I believe in that. That's how we're just wired. brains are wired. Story really sticks. And you're making me think like, yeah, those books I recommend the most are more not have a lot of stories, even if it's less directly tied to the work I do. Maybe it's not even technology. It's not even maybe it's not even around business, but it's got stories they do and stick and connect. I love that. So I'll check that out. I have not read Will Peck. I think I've seen it, but now that I know it, pages I'm also enticed to on that. I can get through it. Casey (37:52) It's one hour of your time max. Scott Dunn (37:53) us. If I can't do that over breakfast, then what's going on? Awesome. I appreciate that. This has been great. I think there's a lot of nuggets for folks that are listening. I wouldn't be surprised, by the way, that this could get chopped up into part one, part two. I think we like them. But this is great because I think it's a great part one, part two, given how we kind of split the conversations. And I love the personal aspect on that as well. So thank Thank Casey for the time. It's been wonderful. think I really look forward to people's feedback on this and a lot of takeaways, a lot of that can be, they can try out some of these things very next week in terms of how they show up and who they are and what they're about. There's just a whole lot of good pieces of this that I think are readily possible for so many people. So I really, really appreciate that too as well. I'm on automatic sites. love them. The Builder Backs, they can do something right away with that. And you gave them a lot of Thank you for that. Thank you for your time. I know you have a lot on your plate. for us, but you appreciate it. Hope to see you soon. Thanks Casey. Casey (38:54) Yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you. Scott Dunn (38:57) Woo!

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