Cider Chat

What can an old apple tree tell us about the past — and the future?
Recorded at the 23rd Annual Heirloom Apple Day at Scott Farm in Dummerston, Vermont, this episode features apple historian and preservationist John Bunker and Todd Little-Siebold, historian and professor at College of the Atlantic.
John reflects on what old apple trees teach us about place, mobility, community, and longevity. Todd follows the genetic trail of historic American apples, revealing lost varieties, surprising French ancestry, and discoveries that are rewriting apple history.
From a 200-year-old tree in Maine to the rediscovery of Drap d'Or de Bretagne, this conversation explores why preserving old apples means preserving their stories, too.
In This Cider Chat
Why every apple grown from seed is genetically unique

What a 200-year-old Maine apple tree can teach us about resilience

Preserving unnamed apples and their local histories

John Bunker and Todd Little-Siebold's apple preservation partnership

The Maine Heritage Orchard and its collection of historic varieties

Crowdsourced DNA testing and the search for lost cultivars

The five French Grand-Mères in early American apple ancestry

Indigenous orchards and the overlooked history of apples in North America

The discovery of Drap d'Or de Bretagne, formerly Unknown Founder 13

Confusing Newtown Pippin with Peck's Pleasant

The return of authentic Foxwhelp to American orchards


Mentions in this Cider Chat

Chronicle — WCVB Channel 5, Boston: Upcoming cider television feature and Instagram reels. Follow @ciderchatciderville
CiderFeast Boston: November 14, 2026 — meet Ria with her glass and recorder!
Cider Chat Episode 518: Denis Gwatkin of Gwatkin Cider Mill in Herefordshire, England
Cider Chat Episode 519: Charles Martell — Stinking Bishop, rare perry pears, Gloucester cattle, and distilling.
Totally Cider Tours: UK in August 2027 and France during blossom time in April 2027. Inquiries: info@ciderchat.com.
Dan Bussey: Author of The Illustrated History of Apples in the United States and Canada.
Episode Timeline
00:00 — Apples as Teachers: John Bunker's Opening Reflection
01:26 — News Out and About in Ciderville
03:18 — eCiderNews: Pennsylvania Research and the Netherlands' Cider Museum
05:55 — CiderFeast Boston and Recent UK Episodes
08:15 — Totally Cider Tours: UK and France 2027
10:49 — Video, Scott Farm, and Heirloom Apple Day
13:34 — John Bunker and Todd Little-Siebold Begin Their Presentation
14:44 — John Bunker: Place, Mobility, and the Apple Tree
24:02 — A 200-Year-Old Tree and the Future of Apple Genetics
28:17 — Saving Apple Stories and Lost Varieties
33:09 — Todd Little-Siebold: Joining the Search for Historic Apples
36:00 — Lost and Found: The Maine Heritage Orchard
37:39 — Maine Apple Camp and Collaborative Research
39:34 — Crowdsourced DNA Testing and Unknown Apples
40:23 — The French Grand-Mères of American Apples
45:44 — Early American Orchards and Apple History
48:40 — Rediscovering Drap d'Or de Bretagne
51:19 — Mystery Apples: Newtown Pippin and Peck's Pleasant
55:06 — Foxwhelp and Historic Naming Errors
56:37 — Audience Q&A: Apple DNA Submissions
57:27 — The French Ancestry of English and American Apples
01:00:58 — Russian Apples, Genetic Diversity, and Unanswered Questions
01:04:01 — Closing Thanks and Supporting Cider Chat
🍎 Get the full story, photos, links and more in the Episode 519 show notes at CiderChat.com.
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🌐 Episode show notes: Charles Martell's Stinking Bishop, Lost Pears and Pure Luck
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Charles Martell has spent decades preserving some of England's most remarkable cider and perry traditions — often with a healthy dose of luck along the way.
In this episode, Charles joins Cider Chat from Gloucestershire to talk about the story behind Stinking Bishop cheese and its Wallace & Gromit fame, rare and disappearing perry pears such as Dymock Red, his historic distillery, Gloucester cattle, and a lifetime rooted in the orchards and traditions of the region.
00:00 Charles Martell on Quality of Life
00:30 Welcome to Cider Chat
02:05 Out and About in Ciderville
02:57 Filming Chronicle at New Salem's Museum Orchard
07:13 Totally Cider Tours and a France Preview
07:54 Arriving at Hunts Court
08:56 How Charles Became a Farmer
10:16 Saving Rare Perry Pears
13:54 Small Farm, Low Volume, High Value
16:22 Books and Lost Fruit Varieties
21:55 The Curious Names of Perry Pears
23:48 Perry Versus Cider
25:37 Saving Rare Gloucester Cattle
30:12 Discovering the Farm's Distilling History
32:23 A Wood-Fired Copper Still
34:52 The Historic Distilling House
35:50 A Look Around the Courtyard
37:36 Tracing the Distilling House's Origins
38:12 Building the German-Made Still
39:38 The Stories Behind the Spirits' Names
40:30 Tasting Poireau
42:17 Pommeau and Barrel Aging
44:45 May Hill and the Surrounding Landscape
46:53 Stinking Bishop and Wallace and Gromit
49:07 Single and Double Gloucester Cheese
50:58 Cheese Pairings, Rinds, and Bacteria
57:20 Hulla Baloo Blue Cheese
58:36 A Turning Point for Perry
59:57 Growing Perry Pear Trees
01:02:59 Where to Buy and How to Visit
01:04:10 Final Reflections and Farewell
🍎 Get the full story, photos, links and more in the Episode 519 show notes at CiderChat.com.
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🎧 Spotify
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Learn More
🌐 Episode show notes: Charles Martell's Stinking Bishop, Lost Pears and Pure Luck
📰 eCiderNews: https://ciderchat.com/ecidernews/
Support Cider Chat
🍎 Become a Cider Chat Patron: https://www.patreon.com/ciderchat
Stay Connected
🌐 https://ciderchat.com
📸 Instagram: @ciderchatciderville
📘 Facebook: Cider Chat

"I've never been on holiday in my life. I work 365 days a year. I enjoy what I do." — Denis Gwatkin
A few friends, some old cider-making equipment, and enough cider to share before heading to the pub. That was the plan. Then a stranger stopped at the farm gate, and Denis Gwatkin's homemade perry took an unexpected journey.
In Herefordshire's Golden Valley, Cider Chat host Ria Windcaller sits down with Denis at Gwatkin Cider Mill's Red Cow restaurant. What began as making cider for friends has grown into a destination for farmhouse cider, perry, food, camping, and music festivals.
Denis shares how it all came together and takes the long view on changing tastes. Strawberry cider helps pay the bills, but what happens to traditional bittersweet orchards when the market wants something different? Through it all runs a deep attachment to the farm and a clear enjoyment of the life he has built.
In This Cider Chat
The chance encounter with CAMRA's John Hallam that brought Denis's perry to a wider audience.

How customer requests helped turn a cider shop into a destination.

Changing tastes, fruit cider, and the future of bittersweet apple orchards.

Natural fermentation, oak barrels, and stainless steel.

How bag-in-box packaging and flash pasteurization changed the business.

Selling cider face to face at agricultural shows and food festivals.

Lessons from Denis's uncle, Brian Browning, on fruit and perry making.

Finding satisfaction in a life where farming, cider, and home are intertwined.

Ciders and Perry Discussed
Kingston Black, Foxwhelp, Yarlington Mill, Norman, Stoke Red, Silly Ewe, No Bull, and Squeal Pig perry. Denis also discusses strawberry cider and recalls that his early award-winning perry was probably made from Moorcroft pears.
Out and About in Ciderville
CiderFeast Boston: November 14, 2026, at the South Boston Lithuanian Citizens' Association. Ria will be attending and recording conversations. Going too? Connect on Instagram @ciderchatciderville.

Cider gains another competition platform as the Argentina Spirits Awards adds cider alongside mead and kombucha.

A preview of the French Blossom Time Totally Cider Tour planned for late April 2027, visiting Paris, Normandy, and Brittany, including a hike at Étretat.

A potential UK Totally Cider Tour in August 2027, with dinner at Gwatkin Cider Mill on the itinerary wish list.

To join the interest list for either tour, email info@ciderchat.com.
Contact Info for Gwatkin Cider
Website: Gwatkin Cider

Restaurant and camping: Gwatkin Red Cow

Location: Moorhampton Park Farm, Abbey Dore, Herefordshire, HR2 0AL, England

Telephone: +44 (0)1981 551906

Down on the Farm Festival

Golden Valley Vintage & Country Fair

Time Stamps
00:00 Cider as a Way of Life
00:23 Introducing Denis Gwatkin
01:15 Out and About in Ciderville
03:17 Cider Community and 2027 Tours
06:32 At Gwatkin Cider Mill with Denis
07:45 Farm Roots and Cider History
10:28 An Accidental Start and Award-Winning Perry
16:12 From Cider Shop to Destination
18:07 Festivals, Camping, and Farm Life
21:47 Changing Tastes and Fruit Cider
27:21 What Changing Tastes Mean for Orchards
29:15 Staying True to Traditional Cider
30:23 Natural Fermentation
32:34 Cider-Making Equipment
34:14 The Bag-in-Box Breakthrough
36:38 Selling Cider at Shows
37:55 Lessons from a Life in Cider
41:38 Exploring the Gwatkin Cider Range
42:33 A Passion for Perry
47:04 Orchards and Sourcing Fruit
48:17 Visiting Gwatkin and Final Thoughts
50:16 "Strange Apples" Outro Song
Listen & Subscribe
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Learn More
🌐 Episode show notes: https://ciderchat.com/podcast/518-denis-gwatkin-cider/
📰 eCiderNews: https://ciderchat.com/ecidernews 
 
Support Cider Chat
If you enjoy independent cider journalism and conversations with cider makers from around the world, consider supporting Cider Chat.
🍎 Become a Patron or Commercial Partner: https://www.patreon.com/c/ciderchat
 
Stay Connected
📬 Story tips: news@ciderchat.com
📱 Instagram: @ciderchatciderville

Jeffrey House and his wife Angela founded the California Cider Company in 1993 and built ACE Cider into a nationally distributed brand before selling the company in 2021.
In this Cider Chat, Jeffrey gets into what it actually takes to build a cider business: distribution, margins, product development, persistence, scaling, knowing when to sell, and why making great cider is only part of building a valuable company.
Mentions in this Cider Chat
- Boston CiderFeast – November 14, 2026 
- French Cider Blossom Time Tour – April 24–May 1, 2027 – Find out about Totally Cider Tours: https://ciderchat.com/totally-cider-tours/
- eCiderNews – This week's story features the new Somerset cider box collaboration from Wilding Cider and Rawlins Family Cider- Wilding and Rawlins Team Up on Somerset Cider Box
Time Stamps
00:00 Cider Without Overthinking
02:13 The ACE Cider Origin Story
03:19 Out & About in Ciderville
06:05 Cider Events, Tours & News
09:31 Meet Jeffrey House
11:18 From Local Apples to National Scale
15:52 Building a Cider Company to Sell
18:58 Immigration & the Early Hustle
24:19 Finding Product Winners
30:34 The Reality of Cider Distribution
33:37 Building the Brand & Planning an Exit
37:21 Location, Costs & Business Decisions
38:32 Serendipity, Timing & Luck
39:58 The Entrepreneurial Mindset
41:58 Building a Product vs. Building a Business
42:29 The Pareto Principle & Persistence
44:41 Scaling, Cash Flow & Margins
46:38 Standing Out with Fruit Ciders
47:35 Selling ACE Cider
52:26 The Reality of Corporate Ownership
54:11 How the Cider Market Has Evolved
56:07 The Origins of ACE Fruit Ciders
58:36 Jeffrey House on Cider's Future
01:00:43 The Cider King
01:01:52 Ria's Wrap & Totally Cider Tour
01:03:17 Closing Song
Listen & Subscribe
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🌐 Episode show notes: https://ciderchat.com/podcast/517-what-made-ace-cider-brand-worth-40-million/
📰 eCiderNews: https://ciderchat.com/ecidernews 
Support Cider Chat
If you enjoy independent cider journalism and conversations with cider makers from around the world, consider supporting Cider Chat.
🍎 Become a Patron or Commercial Partner: https://www.patreon.com/c/ciderchat
Stay Connected
📬 Story tips: news@ciderchat.com
📱 Instagram: @ciderchatciderville

What does time taste like?
Join Cider Chat MC Ria on the 2026 Totally Cider Tour through Normandy, Domfrontais and Brittany, where cider, poiré, Pommeau and Calvados become a way of experiencing place, people and time.
The journey begins with a reconnaissance adventure near Étretat and continues into orchards, cellars and conversations with makers, including Jacques Perritaz of Cidrerie du Vulcain and Eric Bordelet. At Eric's table, a tasting across vintages reveals how cider, poiré and Cormé continue to transform in the bottle.
Then hear directly from the people who traveled on the tour about what surprised them, what they learned and what they'll remember from cider country in France.
Mentions in This Cider Chat
Totally Cider Tours
Bent Ladder Estate Ciders & Wine | Episode 392
Giard | 13 Generations Making Cider, FR | Episode 177
France Blossom Time Tour 2027
Interested in joining the next Totally Cider Tour to France? Email info@ciderchat.com
Timestamps
Note: Cider Chat uses dynamic ad insertion. Depending on the ads served, actual playback times may vary slightly from the timestamps below.
00:00 Lost After Dark in Normandy
01:16 Finding the Trail Back
03:02 Welcome to Cider Chat
04:07 Reconnaissance in Étretat
08:25 La Mer à Boire with Jean-François Bougeant
10:05 An Unexpected Normandy Dinner
10:50 The Totally Cider Tour Begins
12:46 Meeting Jacques Perritaz
14:06 Learning to Work with Tannins
14:52 Drought, Deep Soil and Healthy Trees
16:04 Tasting Time with Eric Bordelet
18:43 Argelette Across the Years
23:27 Cormé and Transformation in the Bottle
25:48 Ted's France Tour Reflections
33:16 The Magic of Low-ABV Cider and Poiré
33:43 Carla and Galen's Tour Reflections
34:46 What the Calvados Cellar Teaches You
37:03 Learning from the Distillers
38:53 Discovering the Range of Calvados
40:28 Joyce and Andy's Tour Reflections
42:21 Discovering Poiré and French Towns
44:41 Discovering Pommeau and Calvados
46:58 Martin on Aged Perry and Access
54:57 France Tour Wrap and Blossom Time 2027
Listen & Subscribe
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▶️ YouTube


Learn More
🌐 Episode show notes:
https://ciderchat.com/podcast/516-totally-cider-tour-france/
📰 eCiderNews:
https://ciderchat.com/ecidernews
Support Cider Chat
If you enjoy independent cider journalism and conversations with cider makers from around the world, consider supporting Cider Chat.
🍎 Become a Patron or Commercial Partner:
https://www.patreon.com/c/ciderchat
Stay Connected
📬 Story tips:
news@ciderchat.com
📱 Instagram:
@ciderchatciderville